From Fractional to Full-Time CMO, with Amanda Reierson, CMO of Avant

 

Peter: The Next CMO Podcast explores topics that are on the minds of forward thinking marketing executives from leadership and strategy to emerging technologies. And we bring these topics to life by interviewing leading experts in their fields. The Next CMO is sponsored by Planful for Marketing. A leading marketing performance management solution that automates marketing planning, financial management, and ROI optimization.

And hosted by me, Peter Mahoney, an experienced CMO, CEO, board member, and executive advisor.

In this episode of the Next CMO Podcast, I welcome back to the show Amanda Ryerson. Amanda is currently the CMO of Avant, a leading provider of financial services technologies. We talked to Amanda about the role of performance marketing and brand, and how she educates her marketing team about the impact of all marketing decisions on the P& L.

I’m sure you’ll enjoy the show.

Hey, Amanda, welcome back to The Next CMO Podcast. So great to see you again. And for those who don’t remember you, I’d love it if you would give us a little bit about your background and tell us a little bit about your new assignment at Avant.

Amanda: So Great. Well, thanks for having me back, Peter. It’s great to see you. So yes, I am currently a CMO at Avant. I’ve been here for four months and really excited to talk to you about the company today. It’s a financial technology company that extends. Loans and credit to non prime customers, which is such an important space.

We work with a bank partner to do that. As you know, I’ve worked at a variety of companies, including Thumbtack which I was at when I last spoke with you. And really, you know, my career has spanned a lot of B2C, B2B for different industries. So a lot of financial services, spent quite a bit of time at Farmer’s Insurance.

Yahoo, for those of you that bleed purple out there, there are a lot of us. Entertainment started my career at the LA Times, so… Look, it’s been a blast. Really excited about sort of the things I’ve been able to work on and very thrilled about the role here at Avant.

Peter: Great. And it’s obviously a great mission. There are a ton of people who just can’t get access to these kinds of financial services. So it’s amazing that to be involved in something that is helping people who otherwise may not get helped like that. So tell me a little bit about sort of the split between a financial services institution and a fintech company.

So how do you draw the. the line there around what a VONT does versus what a bank does.

Amanda: Yeah, that’s right. So we work really closely with a bank partner. Where Avant comes in is we, again, have worked since 2012 in this sort of near prime space and what we do is we use the data as well as just, you know, underwriting methods to be able to really accurately sort of underwrite and accurately price for this group to essentially be able to extend them the financial services that they need.

In order to build their credit and move them financially forward, which is what the brand is all about.

Peter: That’s great. And have you seen in the last, because it’s been a weird economy, obviously,

Amanda: been a weird economy.

Peter: I mean, just so hard to predict what’s going on. And there’s so many positive signals, but also a lot of negative signals. And I know that there, there’s a huge, I just saw that a credit card debt just surpassed a trillion dollars.

And so has there been a change in this lending market over the last several years that has either grown the opportunity, risked the opportunity more or less? So how would you describe that?

Amanda: Yeah. I mean, look, we are in such a volatile time and that, that hasn’t changed as well as inflationary times. So if anything, I’d say just the need for these financial services. Has only intensified over the last couple of years. And that’s where Avant really shines to be there specifically for this segment of customers, given all of the macro economic trends

Peter: Yeah. Now in, in interesting, we were talking just a few minutes ago before we hit the record button. You had an interesting path. Into the CMO role and you started as a fractional CMO and I’ve heard from a number of friends who’ve done something similar. So tell me about the try and buy kind of process that that you went through to join the, join Avant as the CMO.

Amanda: Yeah, so I’ve actually been in touch with the Avant leadership team who I admire quite a bit for a while, and I’ve been watching the company because I do believe in their mission. And our mission and are very interested in really the space and what Avant is trying to achieve. So, we did agree to do a fractional CMO assignment really to allow both of us to work together.

And this has been a trend for a lot of C level jobs over time, not just CMO. To again, really allow the company and the executive to, to work together and you know, determine if it’s a good long term arrangement. So I was really pleased it’s again been such a pleasure and been about four, four months now in the full time role.

Peter: So did you find that there was a change when you went from fractional to full time? So what was different about being a. Contingent worker versus a full time executive in the company.

Amanda: You know, I’d say not a huge change in that I was able to dive in. As a fractional CMO, and as I look at just even that role and the trend in general, being able to dive in as if you are a CMO I think is really pertinent to just deciding again if the role is a fit long term. So I would say, frankly, it was a pretty seamless transition.

Peter: Yeah, and have you done that kind of fractional work before, or was this a first time for you?

Amanda: No, this was a first time for me. Yeah, and again, I think it’s a real trend for… And if it’s something that you’re thinking about again, just like a very nice sort of onboarding into a company.

Peter: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s interesting because on paper, you’ve got amazing skills and fit for this role, both with your time in financial services and insurance, your… a deep consumer and tech kind of background. But sometimes it’s hard to figure out if there’s a cultural fit. If if, and you always find out when you get there, of course, there, there are bodies buried that you hadn’t quite, every company has that, right?

There are issues that you just figure out that, oh, that thing is a little wonky. I haven’t quite sorted that out. Do you think this approach is a really is going to continue? Do you think people will continue to sort of? do this trial period before they, they dig into a full time role.

Amanda: Yeah, and look, I did my research on it before. I think you see a lot of executives that do fractional roles do end up in full time roles. So yeah, I, I think that is a nice just indicator of success of that type of arrangement. So yeah, I would, based on personal experience expect it to continue. And…

Look, the people behind Avant is what makes the company tick. And I knew that going in and it’s only reinforced sort of being in the company. But I’d say that the people and the mission. are so critical. And if you think about even just being a CMO and the skills that you get, whether it be, again, tech, performance marketing, brand marketing, partnerships, all the things like those skills you can acquire at any company along the way.

I think what really clinches an opportunity like this is one where you believe in the business, you believe in the mission, you believe in the people, and that’s when things really hum.

Peter: Yeah. So I would assume in this kind of business that it’s heavily data intensive what you’re doing. So you’ve got obviously a pretty highly targeted target audience, so you’ve got actually probably a really well defined ICP. It’s it’s those people who are I think you call it near prime.

Is that the term that you used?

Amanda: Yeah. I’d say non prime. So

Peter: non prime. Yeah.

Amanda: near prime where Avant plays really deeply as well as the subprime audience. Yep.

Peter: so finding that in, in obviously there there’s a really interesting interplay between Customer acquisition and product. And of course, brand has to play a big role there. So if you sort of lean back and squint at the overall Avant strategy, how would you describe what your team is chartered to do?

I

Amanda: Yeah. I would say it’s twofold. One is ensuring that the market understands the mission. And again, this sort of near subprime audience is so important. And this group has typically been underserved and not had as broad of access to financial services, like the ones that Avant helps provide again in partnership with our bank partner.

So twofold in that helping customers understand that mission being transparent with customers. To ensure that onboarding is seamless is a big piece. So I’d say the brand and the mission, but then also ensuring that we are growing, but growing profitably and growing in a way that works for our customers and works for.

So really that mission of profitable growth is also on the docket and marketing is very involved working with all of our partner business teams to achieve that.

Peter: love this concept because what I’ve been trying to encourage marketers to do more and more is to sort of get further down this path towards some financial outcome as their measurement. And if you look at historically what marketers have done, a lot of them have focused very much on things way up at the top of the funnel.

They focus on awareness or they focus on leads. And getting them to take another step or two further into things like pipeline is great, obviously, but ultimately revenue in a lot of case. But in, in the case of Avant, there’s a really interesting mission here because of the sensitivity of the market that you’re dealing with.

I’m sure there’s a real focus on not only acquiring customers, but acquiring profitable customers. So how do you think about closing the loop between your customer acquisition and the profit derived from those customer relationships?

Amanda: Yeah, they’re not mutually excuse, they’re not mutually exclusive at all. So if you think about really everything from top of funnel, Down through to bottom of the funnel and bringing on those customers, helping them shop, helping them understand your products, getting them to start an application, all the way through to issuance, that, that is all in the market, marketer’s purview.

And if you think about sort of that prospect journey. If you will, that marketing’s not in a silo there. You’re working with, you know, the financial product teams, for example, on how are we thinking about application flow? How are we thinking about every step in that journey and how all of our teams are working together to achieve the same outcome?

So we’re in a world now where marketing outcomes. are the same as business outcomes for the company. And sure, every group has their own discipline and their own KPIs that they measure to. But at the end of the day, to your point, if marketing doesn’t have a hard line into business metrics, It’s hard to show, but the value of marketing and I think that’s where the function is really evolving and changing in today’s world where all business units are accountable for growth now, and particularly marketing, which is making media investments and different types of investments.

It’s really a partnership with the company to show how all those investments are translating into business value. And work together on how you manage those investments. So I’d say in really over the last few years, at least from what I’ve seen, it has moved away from that only creative top and funnel.

And don’t get me wrong, that’s a very important part of marketing, but it’s really all the way through that prospect journey and help working with the company to sort of increase yields through that whole journey.

Peter: Yeah, well, I’d have to say that you’re in the distinct minority of people who are thinking this way, by the way. So thinking through all the way through the real financial outcome. And what I try to tell people is that, that your marketing outcomes should be connected directly to something you can see on the P& L or the balance sheet.

And if they’re not, then you’re. You’re probably missing something along the way, but that’s not always the case for a lot of people. And a lot of people sort of wave their hands and say, well, it’s hard to do and we’re not going to measure it. So the extra work in the focus is really critical. And especially for a business like this that I suspect would be highly sensitive to the wrong kind of customer.

So if you got the wrong customer or you may get someone who is a prospect who is interested, yeah, sure. You know, I’d love to get a loan as an example. And you find that they’re completely unqualified to loan money to, and it would be a huge risk. That would be a colossal waste of money, obviously. So, so talk about your overall marketing strategy.

How do you think about sort of when you try to you know, steer the ship of Avant Marketing. What is the, how would you describe sort of in, in broad brush strokes the marketing strategy that you’ve implemented at Avant?

Amanda: Yeah, so if anything, if we go back to the former question, any marketing strategy needs to be informed by the PNL. I feel I’ve done my job right if my employees are energized by that. Energized by the P& L, energized by that hard line into the financials, and setting up choices for the company of different investments we can make and implications to the bottom line.

That Is the centerpiece of my marketing strategy, complemented by the fact that we are striving towards a mission that I wholeheartedly believe in. So it’s really the left brain and the right brain of being a part of a conversation in the market. That’s deeply important. Believing in what Avant is doing.

And Setting up a team where you have a hard line into the P& L and how the choices you are making and the work you are doing is driving that bottom line.

Peter: Do you find you have to spend a lot of time educating the team about either financial concepts in general or just spending time in general? Highlighting the importance of the fiscal responsibility side of marketing and getting them in a, I can’t remember if you used the word energized or excited or something like that, but that, I love that, right, that you get people excited about the fact that they’re having real business impact.

So is that something that you think requires, specific focus as the CMO and is that part of your role?

Amanda: Yes. To be energized by the P& L, you need to understand the P& L and Avant as a whole. I’d say our leadership team makes that a priority for the whole company. As well as in marketing, absolutely. Ensuring that we’re taking the time to talk about the business, to talk about our priorities. Again, having that hard line in to the P& L and all the decisions that we make is just a way of running the team that, again, I think energizes them when they can write themselves into the story while at the same time being the evangelist for the mission and the brand and the customer and everything that we are doing.

Peter: So obviously when you’re focused on things like performance marketing, it’s a little bit easier to have those conversations. But I suspect a core element of what you’re doing from a strategic side is building a brand. So how do you think about connecting your brand investment to business outcomes at Avant?

Amanda: Yeah. So if you think about brand, you think about messaging. And all of the PR and work that we do, there are, as you know, brand metrics where we look at awareness. We look at favorability. We look at things like trust and how the market is regarding the brand. All of those things, while maybe not always a direct line into the P& L.

our business hygiene. If you look at a company that is poised to grow like Avant is. So that’s how I think about brand is it’s table stakes to ensure that your brand is out there in a way where customers understand the mission, understand. The services that we provide in partnership with the bank.

And that is again, table stakes to be able to have impact on the P& L and gives you the runway to run effective performance marketing. And it all works together at the end of the day.

Peter: Yeah I’d assume that there are probably a couple of things. that are important about your brand your brand program. You know, one is just generalized awareness the category. Am I as a consumer, do I believe that I can actually access fees, financial services? That I might have thought I’m excluded from for whatever reason, because I don’t have the right kind of credit score.

That, that’s one sort of an awareness of the category. And then the second one, and you mentioned the idea of trust as an example, is about brand preference. And if they’ve got a choice between competitors it’s that if you’ve gone through the math. to say that, Hey, we believe that we can increase our brand preference to the point where we’re going to win, you know, 3 percent more deals and 3 percent more deals is going to be worth X dollars.

And that. From a marginal profit perspective is something that would justify the investment in brand. Or do you say that, hey, I got to lean back and squint and say that it’s all part of the cocktail of marketing. And I measure it based on, because the other approach you use is what I call romp.

return on marketing plan, right? You say, here’s the total investment of all marketing and the total financial benefit. So how do you think about that at Avant?

Amanda: Yeah, like I think the cocktail is a good analogy. So of course, whenever you’re looking to enter in a new partnership or take on a new initiative, you do obviously a return on investment analysis, right? To the best of your ability. Sometimes that is in terms of. Sort of issuance, customer base, sometimes that is in terms of just brand awareness and favorability.

So at the end of the day, all of those things are important. It is somewhat of an art, and like I said, I do believe there is sort of a hygiene foundation that a brand needs to have, especially as they’re poised to scale, but certainly there is diligence that’s done, especially if there’s going to be an outlay of investment for the company.

One exciting thing that we have coming is a co branded card with the MLS. Major League Soccer.

Peter: Oh, cool.

Amanda: so yes, that was also a big investment in the brand as well as our customers of providing another financial service credit card that is really in line with that fan base. So there is a lot we are doing to invest in the brand as well.

And like you said, there is diligence behind all of it.

Peter: So I love that partnership. I think that’s really exciting and it’s, it seems really well aligned cause it’s such a broad base in growing base, obviously of MLS fans, which is super exciting. And it’s funny. I immediately went to, I’ve got a good friend who is a regular listener.

Hi, Keith. And he has a big partnership with F1, right? So it’s completely other side of the scale, right? That’s super exclusive, super expensive kind of thing. And I think MLS is becoming a really broad base. And probably in the U. S. and you’re U. S. focused today. Is that right?

So in the U. S. market, I suspect from a a cost basis it’s probably more cost effective to although they’ve got to pay for Messi, I guess, but it’s more cost effective than an NFL thing, as an example, I suspect. Is that fair to say?

Amanda: Yeah. I’d say our focus was really on, like you said, the growing base and ensuring That MLS fan base was aligned with Avant and what we’re doing. So, yeah, it’s a soccer has so much momentum in the U S now. It’s such an exciting category to be aligned with. And again, I think that alignment is really around.

their fan base, what MLS is doing, what Avant is doing, and in the partnership.

Peter: So tell me about the, I mean, that’s obviously A partnership like that is probably, it’s a strategic thing. It’s it’s a big investment, I suspect. So tell me about how you pitched that to the CEO or the board, whoever had to approve an investment of that level. How did you how did you pitch that story to Avant Leadership?

Amanda: Yeah, so the points I’ve hit on really were the central focus. So again, we feel really strongly that the Avant and MLS brands are aligned. As we think about sort of where each brand is going as well as the fan base and can this partnership truly benefit their fan base as well as our customers and potential customers?

So that’s really the first step, right? Is ensuring that. You feel good from a customer centric standpoint that it’s the right way to point. As well as this is another credit card in our suite that we feel really rounds out our financial services product offering. As we think about just overall plan and the services that we offer to our customers.

Peter: So one of the things we haven’t talked about yet, but I wanted to make sure we touched on, is sort of the role of data and how you manage data in your marketing team. Because it has to be central in any consumer or any business, but especially this kind of business. I think the data centricity of, The marketing has to be pretty significant.

So talk about how, what do your data team look like? How do you manage it? How do you think about? The data assets inside Avant to effectively drive your marketing program.

Amanda: Evant so we are tightly aligned with marketing analytics, our data science teams, because to your point, you have to completely be moving together as you think about bringing new customers onto the platform. So, I’d say, like, the teams are extensions of each other. And have to be as we look at, again the models and the innovative technology that Avant owns to really bring on and onboard those right customers that is hand in hand with, okay, how are we going to go out and get them right and find them via marketing channels.

So, that is extremely important as well as the feedback loop. Right? Of you, you target customers, you go out and find them. And then as they come on the platform, how are we taking care of them? How are we servicing them? And really keeping an eye on that customer life cycle together, which is really informed by data and ensuring those customers have the best experience with our financial services.

Is. Just as important as acquiring them and that again is all the data is the foundation of all of that

Peter: And do you have an in-house inside marketing data team that helps manage that

Amanda: It’s a partner team. That’s in house.

Peter: sense. So, believe it or not, we’re actually, I don’t know how this happened. We’re actually almost at the end of our time. And I did wanna make sure that we we asked my favorite question that I ask everyone.

But before I do that, maybe just briefly. It’ll be really helpful to understand, you know, what did you find most surprising about the change from you know, a, you, you were in more of a marketplace model before with Thumbtack where you were most recently still in consumer. What do you find most surprising about the.

the change when you went to Avant.

Amanda: Ooh Interesting question. Well, the good news is I did a fractional CMO role so that mitigated surprises, it reduced surprises But no I would say, you know, if I look at experience, not only at Thumbtack, but even at Farmers, which is such a larger company, there are so many parallels, especially in today’s, you know, macroeconomic environment where companies big and small and different industries are sort of facing the same issues as you think about profitable growth, as you think about customer lifecycle, customer retention.

At the end of the day, the customer is your client, regardless of how big the company is, or what industry you’re in. So I’d say, like, what I’ve continued to find surprising is just the parallels across different industries, across tech, across financial services, where as a CMO, you really Sort of pick up pick up different skills along the way, but at the end of the day, you’re serving your customer.

And if you do that, well, working with the rest of the company, you can be successful in your job, regardless of the industry or the size of the company.

Peter: Yeah. It’s really interesting because I think the, obviously you’ve had some similarities in your companies that you’ve worked for in, in your background from insurance companies and now in financial services and consumer kind of things. But there’s a lot of diversity at the same time in what you’ve done and what your background is.

And I found this from people who have been sort of serial multiple. that the more you change, the more you realize things are the same. And there really are a bunch of pretty fundamental truths, like focus on the customer, you idiot. Things like that, right. Are pretty important things to do. And and focus on, you know, the financial outcomes.

So some of those things that I think are just really consistent truths across any kind of business over time. It is. It is interesting to see that they that some of the same themes keep coming back. Well, with that I’d love to hear, and you’ve answered this question before because you’re a repeat offender on the next CMO, but would love to hear again, your views on what advice you would give to current or aspiring CMOs, Amanda.

Amanda: Great, so like you said, I’d say themes definitely go across different companies and in different roles in marketing you’ll see. A lot of these things ring true of, you know, everywhere you go, if you had a customer sitting at the table with you in this conversation, how might you make a different decision?

And that can, again, help you be successful picking up those sort of skills in every company. I’d say at the end of the day, Ensuring that you are aligned with the customer mission and that’s something as a marketer that you want to get out and you want to tell the world about a company and help to drive that company and make it successful and be successful for customers.

Like at the end of the day, that is what drives me as a marketer. And I believe, you know, certainly. Delivers on that and excited to see, you know, how we can continue to scale this company.

Peter: Excellent. Well, thanks again for coming back to the next C M o. Always a pleasure to talk. Hopefully we won’t talk for a long time because you’ll have a long stay here at Yvonne. It seems like an amazing place. And thanks again for you all to listen for listening to the next C M O podcast.

If you have ideas about topics or guests, please just drop me a note at thenextcmoatplanful. com. Follow us on all those social media things. Make sure that you subscribe and write us a nice review if you like what you hear. And thanks again, Amanda for a great conversation and have a great one.

Amanda: Thanks, Peter.