Episode Summary

Tim Parkin is a global consultant, advisor, and coach to marketing executives of many world-renowned brands. He specializes in helping marketing teams optimize performance, accelerate growth, and maximize their results.

By applying more than 20 years of experience merging behavioral psychology and technology seamlessly, Tim has unlocked rapid and dramatic growth for global brands and award-winning agencies alike.

Episode Notes

Tim Parkin is a global consultant, advisor, and coach to marketing executives of many world-renowned brands. He specializes in helping marketing teams optimize performance, accelerate growth, and maximize their results.

By applying more than 20 years of experience merging behavioral psychology and technology seamlessly, Tim has unlocked rapid and dramatic growth for global brands and award-winning agencies alike.

Tim is a speaker, author, and thought leader who has contributed to AdWeek, Forbes, MarTech, TechCrunch, and dozens of other marketing outlets. He is also a member of the American Marketing Association, the Society for the Advancement of Consulting, and was inducted into the Million Dollar Consulting Hall of Fame.

To learn more about Tim, text “grow” to 844-311-3200

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About Tim here

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More about The Next CMO podcast: https://www.plannuh.com/the-next-cmo-podcast/

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Produced by Podforte.

Full Transcript

 

Kelsey: [00:00:00] Thank you so much, Tim, for joining the next CMO podcast today. I know we’re welcoming you from sunny, Florida. We’d love to learn a little bit more about you and how you currently help yourself.

Tim: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here and talk about this today. I’m an advisor to marketing executives globally. I help them optimize their performance and accelerate their growth. So I work with companies across the wide range of industries from B2C and B2B in all sorts of products and services.

All of the fun things. So I love marketing and I love human behavior and psychology, and I’ve found a way to combine those things. And everyday I get to see the ins and outs of companies, what they’re doing, right. What they’re doing wrong. I get to work with them to try new things. So.

Peter: So Tim, I, I love the, the focus you have on behavioral psychology. I find the topic fascinating and I wonder which came first, the marketing or the psychology. And what got you into the marketing?

Tim: It’s a really [00:01:00] interesting question, Peter, because I have really no technical, I’d say formal marketing background. My background as a young child was I wanted to become a professional magician. And so I got into magic. I thought, you know, this is the career path for me. The problem I realized immediately is that to be a professional magician, you have to work nights and weekends, which no one wants to do, not me.

And so that dream quickly faded. But to this day, I call myself a professional level, amateur magician, and do magic for my clients that conventions at conferences and all the like, but simultaneously after that, I got into software development and technology and I helped companies build products and develop technology.

And it was a really interesting, exciting time. And my background even involves video game design development. But what I realized there is that these companies didn’t have a technology problem. They had a marketing problem, they were building really cool products, but no one wanted them. No one understood them.

And so that’s a really peak my interest in marketing and how it became and fell into marketing, combining [00:02:00] the behavioral aspects of magic, seeing how people think and how they behave. And intersecting that with technology, which today marketing? and technology are inside.

Peter: It’s interesting that you can come from the area of, of magic, because I assume there’s some really interesting human behavior. That comes into and really understanding what’s going on in some of some of interacting with an audience and sort of getting into in selling the you’re not supposed to call it a trick, right?

You’re supposed to call it a what’s what’s the right word, Tim, the effects selling the effect requires that you understand how people are picking up what you’re putting down and reacting to them. Is that true? Or am I

Tim: Absolutely true. And it’s interesting because in magic, a lot of people have heard of a misdirection, but that’s really a misnomer because it’s not about making. you look away. It’s really about controlling your attention and having you focus on what I want you to focus on, where I need you to look when I need you to look [00:03:00] there.

And to your point, that’s what marketing really is. Highlighting the message that we want to highlight and framing it, putting in the context that’s most relevant, and it puts us in the best light and keeping your attention and keeping your engagement right there. So it’s a hard thing to do and the culture and consumer behavior keeps changing, but that’s the goal of, of magic.

And it’s the same goal of.

Peter: Well, as much as I’d like to chat about Presti, prestidigitation my, the entire podcast, easy for me to say connect the dots for us. So we’ve got behavioral psychology. We’ve got, we’ve got magic. How does this all relate? How should we start to think about this as part of the marketing conference?

Tim: I’d say the bridge here is in Mo in magic. What most people don’t realize is nothing happens on the fly. Everything is a process. It’s all scripted. It’s all prepared. You’ve practiced for hundreds of hours. And so you do the same trick to different audiences and it’s rehearsed every move, every word you [00:04:00] say, every.

And in marketing, what we need to do, what the best marketers do is the exact same thing. You’re following a rigorous well-defined well-rehearsed process, time and time again, to different audiences, to different people. And so marketing really is not an event. It’s a process. And what I found from my clients is that the best companies that have had the most success, the most.

Have gotten marketing down to a process down to a science, and it’s not so much about trying crazy new campaign ideas as it is of developing a framework and a process and approach that they can repeat day in and day out. And inevitably they’ll hit on success and they can capitalize on that. But marketing is much more of a process than most people.

Kelsey: I think once you identify that process too, and you create that. Well created system bringing the psychological aspect of it. And when those things are changes, it’s almost those levers that you pull to make sure that you’re following the trends and the patterns of, you know, what’s currently going on in society [00:05:00] today.

And I know we saw a lot of that, you know, in the last couple of years I’d love to learn kind of a little bit more about kind of what some of those trends and those patterns you have personally seen being identified over these last couple of

Tim: Yeah, Kelsey is a really interesting, because I have to be careful here given Peter’s background, but there’s been an immense focus on technology, you know, artificial intelligence, attribution modeling, things like that. And. I have more of an understanding than most people about those things. I think that that’s a trap that marketers are falling into.

You know, now there’s tools that will write the copy for you. For example, using AI and those things are intimidating and overwhelming. I think to a lot of marketers and others are thinking that’s an easy button that they can just press and have marketing, but we can’t forget that marketing really is about people.

And so to your point as much, and as fast as technology continues to evolve and change. So does culture. And so does consumer behavior. And you mentioned over the last couple of years.

you know, the pandemic has upset the whole world. Everything we do has been turned upside down with, you know, target, you can now get curbside [00:06:00] delivery and now everywhere, you know, that was a new innovation.

Launch from the pandemic. That’s completely changed consumer behavior. You know, we now order food and have it delivered to our homes much more often than we did before movie theaters are on the brink of failure and collapse. You know, let’s hope they can survive. And tick tock, tick tock is the thing I’m scared of the most because consumer’s attention spans were already short.

And now it’s just remarkable how fast people can skim through So much content and so many videos. So we need a balance between these two things between. Technology and between the psychology and the, and the behavior. But we have to put the customer first and that’s where understanding that experience we want to create for them.

And then using the right technology to enable that is really key.

Peter: So Tim one challenge that that we’re experiencing in the world today is that you talked about the, the importance of being sort of regimented in planning and in thoughtful. At the same time, we have to match that up [00:07:00] against the incredibly shrinking. The attention span and the turbulence in the planet that we’re all going through right now.

So things change all the time. So how do you plan and be thoughtful while being flexible at the same time?

Tim: It’s counter-intuitive but you plan by that planning. And what I mean by that is you have to plan not to look ahead, but to look right in front of you. And so most strategy, most planning and marketing to P and teams and organizations. You know, two years, five years, things like that. And it’s absolutely ridiculous because you know, the whole world changes in six months.

And so you have to look at one year ahead or less and you need to have plans that will get you six months into the future and focus there because by the time? you get there, everything is different. I’ll give an example. One of my clients, their team has tripled in size over the last. Well, you can’t plan for that speed of growth.

You know, you have to be in the moment, adapting and reacting to that. However, you can have a process in place to help manage that growth and to manage that team and to lead you in the direction that you’re headed [00:08:00] regardless of the size of your team. So it really comes down to planning short-term and having a process that you can adhere to and stick to day in and day out.

The process never changes, but your plans may.

Peter: Yeah, so interesting. I would say that I may have a slightly different view or maybe it’s the same view. Let, let me, let me try and lay it out and either confirm or fight me. Let’s see if this happens. So. I believe that a strategic end point of some kind is actually really critical to have, you need to be anchored on what you’re trying to achieve.

You need to define strategic goals where you want to go as an organism organization and as a function within our organization in support of those organizational goals. Sometimes the strategies the sometimes the strategies change, sometimes the tactics change and the the individual activities you’re doing are changing, but it’s less likely that the goal is going to change now, sometimes [00:09:00] it does too.

But what, what I worry about marketers doing today in a time of extreme dynamism, let’s say. Is that there, if they’re looking to just directly in front of them in not keeping in mind, the prize that they’re trying to go after, they’re going to get lost and I’m famous for using analogies that I don’t know anything about.

So I’m going to use one now and I’m going to use a sailing analogy. And so if, for instance, I’m trying to sail the Bermuda, I think that’s a thing. Then I’m going to probably chart a course to Bermuda. That’s my goal. And my strategy may be go over that part of the water that I don’t know really what it is.

And along the way, what do you do? You look at the weather conditions you tack you change but at the end of the day, you need to get to Bermuda that that’s where you’re going. So the, the daily activity that you’re doing is going to vary a fair amount day to day, but it’s all in service of trying to get to the goal.[00:10:00]

So, is that different from what you’re saying? Or are we in violent agreement?

Tim: I think we’re in agreement? I would say two things about that. The first is that certainly if you have a goal organizationally, you know, to get acquired, to go IPO, that doesn’t change. You know, short-term or long-term, that’s your goal. That’s where you’re headed, but your strategy to get there will change depending on the market and the industry and just the world as that changes.

So that’s where I do think there’s a level of dynamic capability that’s required to navigate that. The second thing I’d say, which I, I agree with you. The challenge that I see with the Bermuda sailing analogy is. If we’re doing something as expected, as predictable as sailing, you know, the water is there.

I agree with you a hundred percent. I would propose the most organizations or rather the ones that are really serious about growing and trying to get somewhere new are more like trying to get to Mars. And so it’s very much uncharted [00:11:00] territory and that’s where we can’t necessarily look ahead. We can’t map out the weather.

We can’t know the course. We have to kind of figure it out as we go. And so I think it depends on the company’s trajectory, really, if they want to have a, a normal, predictable path or if they want to forge new territory has never been forged before. I think they have to just look ahead of them because the future is not able to be defined from the.

Peter: Interesting. So I, I would argue that if you’re going to go to Mars, you need a goal to get to Mars. And and you ought to do some research on where Mars. By the way and again, using an analogy that probably you and I don’t have a lot of detail in. So so let’s, let’s move on. Cause I think we can, I can fight you in another thing, which is kind of interesting which is you, you talk about the, your, your fancy preparation people told me that you have this concept of the fallacy of best practice.

And so tell me, tell me what you mean about that.

Tim: Yeah, best practice is an epidemic in our industry. And you see this time and time again, and [00:12:00] Peter, you know, I’m sure you’ve heard it many times. I see it almost every week where the conversation ends up centering around. Well, what’s our competition doing? Let’s look at their website. Let’s look at their ads.

What campaigns are they running? And let’s do something similar. And that’s just absolute nonsense. And it’s going to get you nowhere because what the customer doesn’t want is average. They want exceptional, they want outstanding, want something interesting. This is why Tik TOK is such a phenomenon because we can see new and interesting things.

And so when you copy the competition, when you have inspiration from your own industry, It creates this average, it’s just boring and it doesn’t let you stand out and it doesn’t create real opportunities for growth. And also, if you think about climbing a mountain, you get to the top of the mountain, you think you’ve made it.

You think you can’t get any better than that, but you don’t realize that behind you is a much taller mountain, you know, 10 times taller. And if you’d only explored other possibilities, innovation is what I’m referring to. And then you’d realize there’s a much taller mountain you could climb. And so some of my clients, [00:13:00] for example, you know, they have 75% market share, right?

This is it we’ve made it, you know, and I don’t agree with that. I think that there’s a lot more out there and there’s a lot, other, many more opportunities for innovation and exploration and Seth Goden. You know, I referred to him, he’s done a lot of talking on this topic over the years about average and the results of that and, and the detriment of trying to seek and become average.

So it’s a big trap.

Kelsey: I think that’s one thing you, you bring up a really great point of best practices and constantly evolving and constantly changing. There’s always like that next level. Right. You know, it’s a best practice. It could be for two, three months down the line. And I think that’s one thing of a psychological idea that marketers need to have is that marketing is constantly changing.

Things are constantly evolving. We don’t want to just copy what we’ve been doing for the past five years. We need to innovate and we need to come up with more ideas. And then it goes back to, you know, just the idea of having things set in stone. And a lot of marketers are being faced today of those [00:14:00] things don’t work anymore.

What can we do now? And I’m sure you see that a lot of the times

Tim: It’s a great example because banner blindness was a thing, you know, before banner ads, banner ads were new and it was all, all the, you know, excitement around. We can show ads to people on any part of the website and all the cleaners, banner ads. It’s all. And now you don’t even see them as a consumer because you’re so used to it.

And so to your point, consumers become so tired of all of our marketing tactics and approaches. And this is why we have to be innovate innovative and try new things, you know? And I think apple is a classic example, but they do a really good job of this because if you think about it, nothing apple has done is remarkably new.

Now the iPhone. It was scary to the competition, but it wasn’t really that new, the technology obviously existed. They just put it together in a way that was never been done before. But the technology itself wasn’t new, they just packaged it together in a new way, because they were able to challenge the assumptions of what the customer.

And of what’s possible. And this [00:15:00] is the thing that companies really need to do. If they want to be innovative. If they want to get out of the trap of best practices, they have to a look to other industries to see what they’re doing and get new and fresh ideas. But B they have to really challenge their own assumptions and limitations because we often assume that the way we’ve always done things is the way we should keep doing it. And we can’t do that. But then I would say, see if you really want to be successful, you have to experiment and test and try something new and outrageous because that’s how you get to that other mountain. That’s how you get to a whole new level is trying things that no one else is even thinking about are willing to.

Kelsey: I am going to put a nice little bow on the top of this though, and say with Peter that you have to have that strategy and you have to have that overall goals. And you know, if it is three to five years out, you need to have that visualized. An idea of how you’re going to get there. So you don’t do all the tactical stuff, but just to switch gears here I wanted to learn a little bit more about, you know, us as marketers.

We understand that testing [00:16:00] is really important, but marketers have one, no idea what they’re doing. Sometimes, sometimes the data is so overwhelming that they just turn a blind eye. What do you think confuses marketers so much about testing and, you know, making sure we’re getting to those right solutions to actually solve business problems.

Tim: two problems with trying to do testing. Or learn about testing. The first is that all the content and information education about testing is out there on blog posts, right? You probably read some blog posts on testing and all that information is either old or it’s really not practical. You know, you, he read things about test a blue button versus a red button.

I mean, that’s not going to get you anywhere. But the second thing is testing is so specific to your business, to your industry, to your customers and your audience and your. And so it’s hard to really share or communicate insights or advice about testing because really all the matters and testing is getting the process, right.

And actually testing things that are going to help you learn what works for your audience and your [00:17:00] industry and your business, et cetera. So those are the two big challenges with testing. But there’s just so much bad advice and assumptions around testing. As I mentioned, because testing really at its core is a process of figuring out how do we drive a desire change in behind.

And so you know, if you think about the doctor’s office, when you were a kid, this is my memory. You would get those magazines and it would have two pages and it looks like the same picture. And it would say spot the differences. There’s five differences in this picture, and it would take you 10 minutes to find them, right?

Cause some of them are so minute and hard to discover. That’s how most marketers approach testing is. They try these simple, tiny, barely noticeable changes and think is going to get them anywhere. What you need to do again is test outrageous. Remarkably different things, black and white differences to get real results.

But to your point earlier, this needs to be done through a strategic perspective. So you’re not just testing random things, not just taking a shotgun approach to testing, but you have a real process in place, a real solid approach that [00:18:00] you can rely on to figure out how do you get the right insights and how do you then apply those to the rest of your.

Peter: So here’s an important thing to keep in mind. I think with testing Tim, because you’re talking about in this case, Very minute micro changes to optimize a landing page. As an example, I want to improve the conversion of a landing page, but there’s a broader thing that we need to talk about when it comes to testing that.

I think you’re also advocating is especially you brought it up a couple of minutes ago about, Hey, people are just doing what everyone else is doing, and that’s not very innovative. So you need a culture of experimentation. So we, we wrote in the next emo book as an example of a lot about this concept of marketers need to behave more like scientists than promoters and marketers, especially marketing leaders are sort of bred and encouraged to promote things, including their [00:19:00] selves and say that look, this was great, but the reality is that not everything is great.

And. Shouldn’t be because everything is is great. You’re probably not pushing the envelope enough. You’re not seeing the much taller mountain as an example, or the much bigger market for the people who have 75% share of properly too small of a market. So you need to push the envelope, which requires a culture that allows testing and allows failure. As long as you’re actually learning from it and figuring out, well, you know, that didn’t work now let’s try another thing. And or that didn’t work. Let me understand why. And let me see if I can adjust it to get it to work. So D do you see that ethic among marketers? How, how prevalent is the cultural support?

To really do real experimentation and testing more broadly than which color button on a landing page, but [00:20:00] what kind of broad campaign strategy to use or try something completely different within a.

Tim: So point that you said that Peter, because I love this idea of becoming scientists rather than being. That really is key. And the key to performance, the formula for performance that I think is people plus process equals performance. And so you need to have a. process. You need to know what you’re doing and be able to repeat that, but it really comes down to the people And you have to have exceptional people, but that’s not enough.

They need a process to support them. so I think when you talk about the culture of experimentation and the culture of being willing to try new things and embrace failure and learn from that, it’s absolutely essential and unfortunate. It’s also the most difficult part. It’s very straightforward to get the right tools and to run tests and to have a process of doing that.

It’s very difficult to get people who can embrace that, who have the personality to try things and fail time and time again, and not hit on success. And then to take that in stride and extract their insights from that and apply that and continue the [00:21:00] process. To learn more and find success. And so one of my clients, for example, we implemented a testing program in the company and once it gets going, the culture really takes over and people embrace it and are excited to submit new ideas, to see their ideas played out, you know, and even to bet on if idea’s going to work or not, it’s really exciting, but it’s hard to get to that point because initially you may have, you know, your first test early success does wonderful, but then you’ll have a slew of tests in a row where you really don’t get any value.

And so you need leadership to buy into this as well, because they have to be there to support it. Because if you’re being held your feet to the fire to produce results, to deliver an ROI, it can be difficult because early on, sometimes the results don’t come immediately.

Peter: And so how do you recommend that an organization initiate this philosophy of testing? How do they get

Tim: There’s two phases. The first I call experiment zero, which really is. Diving into the deep end of the pool, right? You get the tools, you install them. You know, Google [00:22:00] optimize is free. You can start using it today, get the tools, set it up and run a test. And don’t think about it. Don’t think about process.

Don’t think about it as it’s the right test. Just run a test and get a test out there. And once you get over that, once you see that it’s not scary, it’s not difficult. Then the curiosity starts to set in and people say, I wonder what we could test or what if we tested. And there’s going to be a lot of bad ideas initially, and that’s okay.

But that’s where phase two kicks in, where now you can put a formal process and program in place to say, let’s have a way to collect ideas, a way to prioritize those ideas and execute on those ideas. And then after that develop what I call the book of knowledge, which is a place to document, what have we run?

What have we learned? What hasn’t worked, what has worked and how can we take those and apply them cross-functionally to the other elements and aspects of our.

Kelsey: You’re spot on. And I think a lot of the times marketers don’t even set that time aside to do the testing where they’re, you know, doing the experiments or [00:23:00] even just marketing brainstorming in general. You know, over at plan a, we dedicate a certain amount of time per week to just sit down and do marketing, brainstorming, and figure out what we want to task.

Is it the messaging? Is it a new channel? Is it a new you know, an, a new audience? And I just think that we’re bogged down with this empty calorie marketing is saying that we say all the time in our, in our book, but that’s the reality of it. And we’re kind of getting away from that by just doing all the tactical things day in

Tim: I didn’t know that I love that because you really need that time to just think and to bring that. And to a dream, if I can say that. And so much of our time is spent not doing those things, but there’s that famous quote, you know, we’ve all heard that if I had six hours to cut down a tree, I’d spend four sharpening the ax.

We need that. And I think this is where looking to other industries, challenging our own assumptions, you know, and really empowering people. And Peter, to your comments about the culture developing a culture where those things are acceptable, but also the normal and not just. And [00:24:00] that is a difficult shift to make, but the companies who can do that, it’ll do it well, will Excel and thrive beyond their wildest dreams because marketing is not hard, right?

I mean, if we, if we get it down to its core here, let’s just be completely honest. A no one knows what they’re doing in marketing because you can’t know cause the industry and the culture and everything is changing so fast, you know, marketing changes every hour. Especially with all these changes we’re seeing lately.

And so that means be you have to try new things because no one knows what’s going to work. You know, I don’t, my clients don’t, you know, no one knows. And so this is what requires testing and experimentation. If you’re not doing that. And Kelsey juror point, if you’re not taking the time to think and brainstorm about what you could try new, then you’re just setting yourself up for failure.

Kelsey: And you just don’t do it.

Peter: Is there such thing as too much testing.

Tim: There is a limit, but most companies will never be. And the limit would be testing.

far too many things, and you can actually a have capacity for, and B actually get [00:25:00] value and insights from, you know, if every piece of the machine is changing all the time, how do you know what’s had an impact or. I’ll say the one of the best companies I’ve seen that does testing really well.

It’s new Relic, new relic.com. They’re a platform that manages software and all types of things about how software’s performing. But every time I go to their site, I swear their homepage is different. And every time it puts the biggest smile on my face, because I know they’re constantly testing new things and trying out to see if they can outperform their.

And so, you know, real big shout out to them for doing that. But that’s the example. That’s kind of the standard that we have to be testing all the time. And most of my clients who have embraced testing to a large degree, have a dashboard, which has their testing velocity, which is how many tests are we running compared to last month, compared to last quarter across the team?

And really it’s almost a game or a challenge of how can we increase our velocity of testing? How can we test more things more quickly and get the value from them? So the more you can do the better, I would say it’s almost [00:26:00] impossible to hit the limit because most companies never even get.

Kelsey: just to play devil’s advocate here, though. I do think there is a balance of the testing because sometimes. People are testing so fast, they’re not able to see the long-term results of that. And then they’re constantly changing and they’re not getting, you know, the right data and understanding what actually is the right messaging.

What is that, you know, banner ad that you’re launching. So it’s also making sure you’re letting things run for a certain amount of time before you, you know, switch, switch gears here. That’s

Tim: No, absolutely. You’re right. There is an element of statistical significance that you need to let things run enough time. that’s part of having a good process and also being cognizant of campaigns or events or promotions that are running, that could influence your results. you have to look out for those.

And so tracking that stuff very carefully is a huge challenge and a huge necessity to have accurate testing insights. Good additions. [00:27:00]

Peter: So bringing it back to the behavioral psychology we talked about in the, in the beginning. In the fact that we’re going through lots of change in the world right now, and behavior is changing. How, how should that impact the way that you’re testing? Because you, you talk about this book of knowledge, which is a really great concept by the way to, to document your learnings.

But that doesn’t mean that those things are always going to be true in, in things are going to be changed. So how do you make sure you’re processing. Incorporates the ideas of revalidating, some of the assumptions that you think you’ve proven while the world might’ve moved on before.

Tim: Absolutely. There’s definitely an element that not everything will last and not everything has lasting value. However, there are many truths that stand the test of time. And so many of those things you can capitalize and reuse, it may be your approach to creative. It may be the way you write copy or key messages that you found that resonate with consumers.

I’m sure as marketers, we’ve all seen [00:28:00] once you land on the right message, your consumers kind of adopt that and carry it with them and, and use that in their communication with others. So things like that certainly stand the test of time. Obviously they have an expiration date. At some point, you can’t do it in perpetuity forever, but there are other things to your point that you’ll find work for a season or work in a specific context, but don’t work elsewhere.

And that’s part of the testing process is figuring out which things have lasting value and which things are temporary or femoral. And so when we’re testing and when we’re documenting these insights and sharing. Part of it is revalidating constantly that, you. know, if this worked over in this channel, will it work in this other channel?

Or if this worked for this campaign, could we apply the same thing or maybe in a different context? But one of the processes that I walk my clients through is test driven marketing, which is aligning testing to these strategic initiatives and areas of marketing. And what I’ve found is that among most of these companies, you know, obviously there’s a limit on capacity on budget.

And so we can’t do everything. And so how do we [00:29:00] focus our experimentation, our testing on the areas that will have the biggest impact. And so by figuring out what areas we want to explore more, what areas we want to try to innovate more in, or which areas we think have the highest return on investment, then we can align the test, the experiment that we’re running within those domains, within those areas to extract the maximum.

Peter: W, well, Tim, this is, this has been an amazing conversation so far. Believe it or not. I think we’re coming to the end of our time. So maybe I’ll ask the penultimate question, which is just how, how would our listeners learn a little bit more about temper.

Tim: Absolutely. You can connect with me on LinkedIn or on my website, Tim parkin.com. And also I have what I call my vault, which is a collection of all my intellectual property and webinars and videos and eBooks and all sorts of good stuff like that. All free. If you just text the word, grow to the phone number eight four four three one one thirty two.

Peter: Great. Excellent. We’ll put it in a links to that info in the show notes too, for, for people who [00:30:00] who didn’t catch that or on the fly. And so I think with that, Kelsey, we’ve got one more question.

Kelsey: Yes, Tim, the question we always ask is what advice would you give to those that are CMOs or aspiring to be one someday?

Tim: The first advice I would give you is make sure you give this podcast a five-star rating. It’s amazing the effort that goes into this and be sure to pick up a copy of the next CMO book unpicking a my copy, right? And Peter has told me a little bit about it and it sounds absolutely amazing. So make sure you do that.

It sounds tremendous, but really help you. But the second thing you should do is think about your people and your process. As I mentioned, people, plus process equals performance. So you need to have the right people, but more importantly, I think you need to have a solid repeatable process. And the more you can define that process and document it so you can ensure it gets followed accordingly.

The more success.

Kelsey: Well, great. That was excellent. And I promise we did not pay him to say that, but thank you so much, Tim, for your time today and make sure to follow the next CMO and planet on Twitter and [00:31:00] LinkedIn. If you have any questions, you can email us@thenextcmoatplanet.com. Have a great day, everyone.

Tim: Thanks guys.

Peter: One other one quick thing, Tim, do you have an illusion you can perform that we can use for the promo?

Tim: not, not a quick webcast illusion, but

Peter: No, but I

Tim: Yeah. Sorry. I should have come prepared with that. Darn.

Peter: No, no, I thought it would. I thought it’d be fun. Let me, I’m just going to stop the recording now, since we can’t get that out of your free entertainment.