The Next CMO Podcast: All About ABM with Natalie Cunningham, CMO of Terminus

Episode Notes

In this episode of The Next CMO podcast, we speak to Natalie Cunningham, the CMO of Terminus, the leading account centric platform for revenue growth.

Terminus is the leading account centric platform for revenue growth. Our mission is to empower go-to-market teams to drive revenue impact for a sustainable growth advantage.

About Prospect Engine: Today launches Prospect Engine, a new data solution to uncover previously unknown, high-quality accounts and contacts showing in-market buying signals. Launched together with Bombora, the leader in B2B Intent data, Terminus now offers powerful data to the entire go-to-market (GTM) team coupled with best-in-breed advertising and the most native engagement channels available.

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Learn more about Natalie Cunningham

Learn more about Terminus

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Produced by PodForte


Natalie Cunningham
Peter Mahoney

Full Transcript


[00:00:08] Peter: The next CMO podcast explores topics that are on the minds of forward thinking marketing executives from leadership and strategy to emerging technologies. And we bring these topics to life by interviewing leading experts in their fields. The next CMO is sponsored by Plannuh Makers are the world’s first AI-based marketing leadership platform, and hosted by me, Peter Mahoney, the founder and c e O of Plannuh, along with my co-host Kelsey Krapf.

In this episode of the next CMO podcast, I speak to Natalie Cunningham, the CMO of Terminus. Terminus is a leading provider of ABM solutions, and Natalie and I go into depth around all things abm, how it’s different from things like personalization, how it relates to your ideal customer profile, the techniques that we should all be using as marketers that are learned from ABM marketers, and we even learn about some new capabilities that Terminus is releasing just today with their new prospect.

I’m sure you’ll enjoy the show. Hey Natalie, thanks so much for being with me on the next C M O podcast. Really excited for this come first session and to get us kicked off, it would be great if you just gave us a little bit of your background and how you got to your current role.

[00:01:43] Natalie: Yeah, I’d be happy to. Thanks for having me on, Peter. So I grew up in the agency world. I built most of my career actually as a consultant, working primarily in B2B and primarily in demand gen. and then as you move up an agency, what happens is you end up selling marketing instead of doing marketing.

And I was reminded that my passion is really the work and made the transition over to client side a few years ago and really have been heavily focused in B2B SaaS ever since then. Started with some small startups spent a bit of time at some larger organizations and realized that my sweet spot is really.

A growth stage organization and in particular that I’m deeply passionate about, more tech and abm, and so Terminus was a fantastic spot to land for me.

[00:02:30] Peter: Well, great. It is a fantastic spot for anyone. I’m really excited about this conversation, Natalie, because it’s a topic that’s near and dear to my heart. And obviously you all are not only great experts from the technology perspective, but understand that you’re great practitioners yourself, which I’m super excited about.

So maybe not everybody knows who Terminus is. Just give us a little quick nickel tour of what Terminus is all about. Before we.

[00:02:57] Natalie: Yeah, for sure. So, probably most people are familiar with our name, but I’ll give a high level. We were one of the pioneers in the ABM platform space. And since then since really kind of being the first ABM platform the way we see ourselves is a partner with b2b go to market teams to drive e.

Pipeline and revenue. And so that usually comes about through an ABM strategy. We actually have the most native channels of any ABM platform. And we bring that together with the highest rated B2B advertising platform on the market. You can ask Forrester about that and first and third party data.

And so we’re really just a demand gym platform, but the way that we do that is primarily through account centric go-to-market motion.

[00:03:38] Peter: Excellent. I’m glad you brought that up because obviously I think the term ABM is banding about a lot. I think it’s probably confusing for people in some cases. Sometimes people have oversimplified it. And obviously it is it. A nuanced concept that most people as marketers should be engaging in at some level if they’re if they’re marketing the companies.

So it, it would be help helpful to understand, unpack that a little bit about what really is ABM all about and why should anyone care.

[00:04:16] Natalie: Yeah, I, so I’ll say this first. I have been a long time practitioner. I remember when I was running strategies for demand gen programs and it was. Oh gosh, 2014, and we were just starting to talk about what is this a b M thing and why should anyone care? And I think the definition has changed over time.

I think that’s okay. To me, what it means is efficiency and prioritization. And so by that I mean. We needed as a B2B marketing culture to move beyond the build it and they will come. Inbound strategy content’s fantastic. The inbound strategy that dominated demand gen in the early two thousands and the 2010s made sense at the time when most companies were at a growth at all cost mandate.

Certainly within sas. . It’s very different when we need to have an efficiency mandate. ABM is the way to do that and the priority in ABM being who you spend your time, your money, and your resources on, much less so about exactly what you do. That’s sort of, to me, is the difference. As we get out of inbound, you start with what channels and tactics and A B M I.

Who do I want engage? Does sales agree with that? Does my CX team agree with that? Where am I gonna get the most bang for my buck with my investment? And if you look at everything through that lens, you’re really starting to think about things in the way. A b m promises. I’ll also say I’ve heard it called abs.

I’ve heard it called a B r I’ve heard it called account centric Go to Market. I think we as B2B marketers like to put a brand on anything that we can, and we like to name things.

[00:05:57] Peter: We, we do. And tell me, give me your perspective on the line between a b M and your I C P.

[00:06:08] Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. They are inextricably connected, in my opinion. If you want to execute an ABM program and you do not know what your ICP is, or you think that your ICP is your tam, you’re gonna have a real challenge finding value in

[00:06:27] Peter: All right, so just to warn you, Natalie, I think my mom listens to this podcast, so let’s define some of these terms. All right, so I c P in Tam, let’s just spell those out for people.

[00:06:38] Natalie: Yeah. So to me the most important part of icp, it’s ideal customer profile. It is the I in ideal TAM is your total addressable market. Some people look at that a little bit differently than others. It might be a, you sometimes here, t r m, total reachable market. That just means the market that your product could serve could solve a problem for. That entire market is not currently looking for something that you’re selling. They also aren’t all equally likely to be successful with your product. They aren’t equally likely to close. There is an ideal within that’s a certain size, a certain industry, a certain set of personas within that you know is likely to have a higher deal value is likely to close at a higher.

and is also likely to become long-term customers and advocates for you. Those are the kinds of people in an I C P that we wanna target with an ABM program.

[00:07:34] Peter: And does an ABM program need to be a list or can it be a selection criteria?

[00:07:39] Natalie: Oh gosh. It can be both. It can be both. I, you know, I think that there are variations dependent upon your go-to-market strategy. So, for example I had a conversation with a customer today that has a very finite target market. We’re talking 20 companies potentially, that she really cares about at any given time that might go up to 50.

It’s a small number of companies that she cares about. That’s a named Target account list. And she’s gonna have a list that’s not gonna change based on a set of criteria. There are other companies that sell something that maybe their target audience isn’t near as finite. This is actually the much more common use case.

But they have these qualities, they’re within this employee size, this revenue range, they have this kind of tech stack, right? So techno. They have these types of roles within their marketing organization or whoever your target audience is, absolutely can execute an A B M program based off of that criteria and would generally recommend that you do with the exception that you should separate.

A target account list, a named target account list for one to one outreach, separate from maybe criteria that you put in place where you have a dynamic list for one to few or your one to many programs based on your level of investment.

[00:09:01] Peter: Makes sense. And now one other point on the curve is define the difference between a b, m and personalization.

[00:09:11] Natalie: This is my favorite one. I love this. So I am gonna say to me, ABM is who? And personalization is how. And so I’ll use an example of one of my favorite sayings. I’m originally from Kentucky, and so that’s bourbon country. And one of the things that my dad always says is, not all whiskey is bourbon, but all bourbon is whiskey.

Not all personalization is abm, but all ABM better be personalized.

[00:09:44] Peter: Got it. Make, makes total sense. And let’s back up one step for the listeners too, and let’s just talk about why, right? So why in the world should. anyone who’s listening today, maybe besides my mom who’s not a marketer. So why should everyone who’s a marketer who’s listening today, care about these kinds of concepts in this moment in time or any moment in time?

[00:10:09] Natalie: In this moment in time, I think the answer is ef. And I, and you’re gonna hear me say that over and over. I think I’ve probably already said it four times in today’s conversation, but I, I truly believe that to be efficient, we must be prioritized and focused. And you’re, if you’re in a world that you have a pipeline target. Much less a revenue target, but let’s just start with pipeline. A pipeline target you need to achieve as a business, and you have a set budget that you can put in order to achieve that pipeline number. There’s more efficiency in knowing that the people you are spending your time, money, and resources on have a higher propensity to purchase your product because of who they are, who their company is, and an intense signal that you’re leveraging from either third party or first party data.

Then to throw that money at things like paid search. Not saying not to do that, but things like paid search where you really don’t have those same targeting levers to get to the right account and the right person. It’s just spending your money really wisely in places that you know you’re gonna get the most return.

[00:11:21] Peter: So describe to us then, what does a B M feel like to the marketer and to the prospect? What are they experiencing? So why is this different from any other kind of marketing where I may have a reasonably well selected list?

[00:11:37] Natalie: Yeah. You know, I don’t for the marketer for sure. It’s gonna feel different and I think the biggest change for the marketer is shifting out of the lead generation mindset. Moving the goalpost from what’s the number of MQ ls. That I have generated from this thing to what’s the amount of pipeline that I have either created or in many cases you didn’t actually connect it back to marketing as creating it because it’s abm.

So you actually had some lift in pipeline creation. , getting comfortable with numbers like that instead of the direct attribution to a lead number that might not actually turn into revenue. That’s a big change for the marketer, for the user, for the person that’s experiencing this type of campaign, the idea is that they should experience something that is much more relevant.

They should experience something that is a little bit more Channel cross-functional, that they should be getting the same message in lots of different places, and that it should be very relevant to their stage of their buying cycle.

[00:12:43] Peter: So

[00:12:43] Natalie: should be their experience. If you’re executing

[00:12:45] Peter: isn’t that just good marketing? What’s the difference?

[00:12:49] Natalie: I, well, one, yes, it is good marketing. I, you know, I think that ABM is not I will not say that ABM is B2B marketing. I don’t believe that to be true because I believe that there are B2B use cases that are more transactional, that look even a little bit more like a B2C use case where the investment you need on a target account where you.

Single threaded buying decision just doesn’t make sense. For b2b, however, in most situations for b2b, if you have a long sales cycle, if you have a multi-person buying committee, and if you have a large dollar deal size on average, yeah, A B M is good. B2b. . I think that is probably a true thing, and there’s a lot of what makes ABM great, that is the tenets of smart B2B marketing.

But it ch, the difference is it changes what the definition of success is. That allows us to focus on personalization, good experiences surrounding the buyer with things that matter, versus focusing all our, of our attention and energy on vanity metrics like MQs.

[00:14:00] Peter: Yeah, but just to push on that a little bit. So, you don’t have to focus on MQL and you can focus on pipeline metrics and not do. Ab m So it can’t be, it can’t be the only thing, right? So what are the let’s come out of this from this approach. Give me an idea of a what you’d consider sort of an ab m inspired technique

[00:14:27] Natalie: Yeah.

[00:14:28] Peter: that most marketers should be doing that maybe they’re not doing today.

[00:14:32] Natalie: Yeah, let me give you a real world example. I think of a good one that a lot of marketers probably would experience at some point this year. Events. So events are something I think a lot of people are in investing in because we’re, you know, sort of post pandemic and people are starting to come back to in-person events.

And we actually recently attended one and the way that we approached the demand gen process in advance of the event and the process post-event to turn that into pipeline is very different than what I would do in a lead-based environment. So, in general, I think data that you get from event vendors is.

Pretty lead centric. There are a bit of laggards in this transition to an account centric motion. And so what I would recommend and what we did at Terminus actually, is to break all the data down, map everything to accounts, and to start with fit first. So the approach was every piece of data we got is the sponsor at the.

It was to map all of that data that separate individual lead activities instead of giving you an account centric view. We had to do that ourselves. We pulled that together and said, okay, based off of this, we’ve got a set of hit list accounts that. , regardless of what the contact did there, that account looks like a great fit for us and we were able to run it through our intent with Bombora and we saw, ooh, they’re actually showing some intent in market across that account for the thing that we’re, that we sell.

Okay. Then we can go a layer down into the contacts and prioritize from within that of, we actually had three contacts from that one company that talked to four different people. In our organization went to one of the sessions that our team put on at the event. They seem to have some interest in what we’re selling, and they’re a great fit for us.

Let’s put them on the hit list. We want account first from a prioritization standpoint versus using the engagement data at a lead level and then blasting everybody with post event messages. We created a one-to-one hit list. We created a. Few lists of those that were a good fit, but maybe showing a little bit less intent to buy an ABM platform in the short time period.

And then we created a one to many list that could potentially be a fit based off of their account, but maybe that person wasn’t exactly the right person, and we wanna expand within that account. So that’s a, an account centric approach versus I easily could have spent a lot of time and effort sending A B D R after a lead that was highly engaged with us.

If I didn’t also look and say, well, wait a minute, this other person over here was highly engaged with my team as well and actually should be reaching out to all of them, and they’re all really good fit for our account. And so let’s put the right amount of effort around that instead of spending our effort in the wrong.

[00:17:27] Peter: And do you see people do you see people on the other side of that just being untargeted? Do they ignore the data? How, what’s the behavior that tells you that someone isn’t doing this right? And what’s the pain that they may be feeling as a result?

[00:17:43] Natalie: Yeah, I mean, well, I’ll say first I have personally experienced and been a part of not doing this great in the past and kind of following that lead centric of, well, everybody that attended that I get their contact info for, we better reach out to all of them. Let’s put ’em all in an email blast on, you know, post event campaign and have the BDRs call them all.

And often we found something from that, but it’s not been as fruitful as I needed it to be. Certainly for the investment that I made in the event. And then my experience as an attendee of the event has been that the week after the event have been, my inbox is completely bombarded with messages from people that. don’t really remember what I do. Many of them are trying to sell me things that we actually do as a company. So they haven’t done the research on who we are. I don’t have the personalization cuz they’re doing it at scale and they didn’t prioritize who they were reaching out to.

[00:18:36] Peter: So this almost tells me that your example assumes something. It, it assumes that you’re talking about someone selling a product in an existing category where stuff may be going on and some awareness may be there, maybe some buying signals, things like that. Does ABM work if you have a new category that you’re selling?

And if it does, how is it?

[00:18:59] Natalie: That’s a good question. I, yes. . Yes, I know We have customers that are in that situation and let me use a slightly different variation of it, of maybe not a new category, but a new category for their brand. It’s particularly a use case where they’re using us for cross-sell, upsell into a new product that they previously weren’t known for.

So they wouldn’t know that their customers were interested in that thing because they hadn’t previously been trying to sell them that. That certainly is a thing that. I mean, category creation is a challenge overall, no matter what methodology you are using. But I would imagine that the same principles.

Of prioritizing who you’re going after for fit, you have to have an icp. If you’re creating a category, maybe your intent signals are a little bit more challenging because they’re not gonna be searching for your solution, but they should be searching for solution to a pain. Otherwise, you’re creating a category without persistent pain, and that’s a different problem.

So if there’s persistent pain, there’s going to be intent for a solution.

[00:20:00] Peter: Absolutely. So, so now tell me one, one more thing, and I want to get into some specific examples in a minute too, cuz you told me when we were chatting before that you have yourself been implementing some interesting strategies that so want to understand those. But one other question for you, just about the concepts in general is tell me about the application of these techniques in a.

In a mode where you’re in an awareness generating cycle versus a lead generation cycle, what’s the difference?

[00:20:32] Natalie: Yeah. It’s goal, it’s channel, it’s conversion activity. So actually the way I look at a B M is full life cycle. So getting even beyond generating leads or pipeline, it’s brand awareness. You might be building pipeline. . We use ABM for pipe acceleration as well, using ABM for customer retention and customer expansion.

And each one of those has a very different play. For an example to, to answer your specific question between brand awareness and build pipeline we actually are launching a new product soon. And so. We have gone about a target account program for part of this launch. We’ve got a set of target accounts that we think make sense for this within our existing user base as well as net new.

and we have a very different call to action, and we’re using very different channels for those in brand awareness where we just wanna make them aware that we are in a space they maybe didn’t think of us before. We’re sending them to value proposition content. We’re sending them to thought leadership content on that space.

We’re being very clear that we now have a solution for a different persona within your organiz. in our messaging versus in our build pipeline plays. We’re using data within our target accounts to know that they’ve hit a point of meaningful engagement that we have defined within our platform to transition them over.

Into a build pipeline play. This is gonna have a different c t a. We’re gonna have a little bit more persistent chat when they get to the website where we’re gonna have a B D R that’s trying to get them into a conversation. We’re gonna drive them towards setting a demo. , I’m gonna push them to do different things based off of what their engagement tells me, and I’m gonna give them different messaging because at this point my data says that they’re aware at least that we have a new offering and I now can tell them why they should choose us for that offering instead of just educating them on the offering itself.

[00:22:25] Peter: Well, this is a super relevant conversation for me, so I’m gonna just tune out the audience and not think about them for a few minutes because I’m gonna be super selfish. Because if you think about what what I’ve been through in my company in the last year or so. So we went through being acquired.

So my company Plannuh was acquired by a company called Plan Full, and of course, Marketing planning and optimization and budget management software. It was acquired by a company that does that for finance people. So we’ve got a great base to sell into of accounts and just like you with a new product, we have a new product to try to sell this thing into this great install base of companies.

And it’s a different buying center within the account. So I’d love to hear the specifics. So I I think this is where we transition. More specifically about the campaigns that you’re working on, and I’m gonna make sure that I listen extra hard for this one because it’s super relevant for what we’re going through right now.

[00:23:23] Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. So I’ll give a few more specifics on that campaign that we’re, we just started talking about, of launching a new product. What we’re doing with that is, We’re start one. We’re starting with net new. And by that I mean we’re starting with brand awareness and building pipeline. We will eventually expand that all the way along the revenue flywheel, but we, like everyone have to prioritize

And we have the time, we have the resources we have. And we decided to prioritize that because we looked at our customer base and we looked at our market presence and we felt there was a bigger gap in understanding Terminus as a data solution. So it’s a new product we’re offering called the Prospect Engine.

It really gives a solution for the entire go-to-market team versus where Terminus has really historically been primarily for the marketing organization. And so we are getting into new buying committees very much as you’re experiencing for planful and Plannuh. . With that, we said, okay, CSMs we are gonna ride your coattails on your relationships with your customers in the short term.

We’ll give you content, we’ll give you webinars and experiences for your accounts, but we’re gonna spend a lot of our time and effort. We’re gonna define target accounts first to build brand awareness with, and those two build pipeline with. And so for building brand a. It’s really a multi-channel play.

We’re using our, all of our own products, so we’re using our email signature product as a great way to get b d R communication, AE communication and C S M communication to get essentially a banner ad in front of the right people that are in our target accounts with a message that makes sense to them to get them to what is a solution page on our website that tells the story of why they.

Thing Less so why they need it with Terminus more. So why do you need this thing and. Lightly, why should you consider Terminus for it? And then once they hit a point of meaningful engagement from those emails we’re sending an email nurture program. We also have the email signatures. We have a personalized chat program throughout our site where they’re gonna get a different message.

If they’re on that target account list, then other people would and then obviously advertising coverage as well. Then they move into a build pipeline play. And in that play we have a specific offer where we have a webinar for them that we think is extremely timely, given the budget constraints and the economic challenges that everybody’s dealing with right now.

That’s relevant topic. To the solution that we offer, but really isn’t about the solution, right? It’s just the relevant topic for thought leadership that we’re driving them towards. But then we’ve also got our ADRs working on one-to-one outreach to those within the build pipeline, play with highly personalized messages.

We’re using multi-channel for that as well, and then that all leads them to our demo motion. So after that webinar, we then work through a. ADRs advertising some onsite conversion and some web personalization where all the CTAs are gonna be pushing them towards getting into a sales conversation.

[00:26:31] Peter: Got it. Got it. That’s great. And I think I’ve got a million questions about this, but I can’t, we can’t get into too much detail here in, in this session. I do want to ask a little bit about sort of the economic value here. So how you think about this. So, Pretend for a minute, you don’t work at Terminus and you didn’t get all this stuff for free.

How would you justify investing, and whether it’s technology or people or bulls, how would you justify the investment in in implementing an a b M based strategy?

[00:27:07] Natalie: Yeah. So I’ve had to do that before. And what I’ve typically done is one, I. . I don’t go to my C F O or my c o and say, Hey, I’d like to purchase a new piece of technology to try a thing we’ve never done before and prove its value within a one year contract. Instead, I start with a pilot and I try to prove value in partnership with my sales leader.

We do it manually with what I like to call duct tape and bill wire and do very clearly. Two segments. We have a control group and a target account group that’s gonna get this play. And I look for lift and the metrics that my, the rest of my executive team cares about. And so through that pilot, I would prove deal velocity, deal value, increased close rate.

Potentially lower cost per opportunity. For example, at Terminus minus half the cost on a target account that’s in an ABM play and meaningful engage versus what we get on the inbound side. It’s half to get a, an opportunity in pipeline. Those metrics make that conversation much easier. When you say,

What if I could scale this instead of continuing to invest at the level I am here? I’m not saying I’m turning off the leads. I’m not saying we’re turning off inbound. I’m saying I wanna shift some of my investment over, so maybe I’m gonna stop investing a hundred K that I was putting into Google paid search that wasn’t as fruitful as I needed it to be.

Cause I got leads and they didn’t actually turn in a pipeline. Or if they turned in a pipeline, they didn’t close. Let me shift that over and focus on an ABM program. and here’s the pilot data to show you why that was successful. Our most successful customers do that on the front end.

[00:28:50] Peter: So reminding me of a question I was gonna ask you and should have asked you in the beginning, but now I’m gonna ask it toward the end.

[00:28:55] Natalie: Yeah.

[00:28:56] Peter: What is a signal? That a marketer should look at that says that they’re not doing enough targeted marketing. Give me a sense of how do you diagnose the problem? Right.

What are you seeing and what? Reminding me of this question that I was thinking about before Natalie, was this idea of, Hey, my Google leads aren’t converting enough into opportunities, but what are the kinds of things, are there a handful of things that you look to, to say that, oh my goodness, this person has to be more targeted, has to take a different approach.

[00:29:29] Natalie: Yeah. . I think it’s, there’s probably lots of things, as with marketing, there’s more data than we have time to analyze it, quite frankly. What I look at most often for that is conversion rate throughout the funnel. So I’m less looking at volume and I’m more looking at funnel health, and in particular when I’m looking at we’re not being targeted enough the way we think about.

My, my quality, my top of funnel quality is not great cuz I’m not getting the right people in is how many people are coming in their first engagements, whether that’s a net new lead or that’s a, we call it a qualified conversion, which might be a contact added to an existing target account. Many of them are coming in and then not converting to the next stage.

So I’ve got a standard I expect to get of those people into a demo request. I’ve got a standard conversion rate I expect to see from demo request to S QL or S Q A. I’ve got a standard conversion rate from S Q A to S Q O, and I watch those conversion rates more so than I watch the volume for that. And when I start to see them dipping and I start to see them dipping consistently, Typically tells me we have a quality problem and usually that has something to do with targeting, and then we go dig in further from there.

[00:30:46] Peter: Makes sense. Excuse me. The and we’re unfortunately, believe it or not, we’re almost up at the end of our time and I have to save time for at least one of my favorite questions, but I did want to ask you a little bit first about your marketing strategy. How would you define your marketing strategy at Termin?

[00:31:06] Natalie: Oh man. That is a tough one for me to answer. I will say, because. I think our marketing strategy is lots of things. And I tend to describe our brand. I tend to describe our demand gen approach, and I don’t often think about it all the way across our marketing strategy, but I will attempt it.

I think the most important thing for our marketing team that I say all the time is a core tenant of our strategy is prioritize. It is impact over. And so how we make decisions on what is in our strategy and what is not based on activity. It is not based on showing the company that we’ve done a lot of things.

It is based off of hitting the company numbers. Not hitting a marketing number. So, for example I’ve worked in a lot of marketing orgs where the strategy was pipeline generation at all cost, and that they’ve celebrated hitting a pipeline number when at the same time sales didn’t hit their quota. Our marketing strategy is for the business to be successful. And so we don’t have a marketing pipeline generated number. We have a business pipeline number, and we have a business revenue number. And so we orient all of our strategies around helping everyone be successful instead of thinking about how we hit our number.

That’s a big difference in our strategy. And then I think the other big thing we’re focused on right now is frankly our. So we are in a highly competitive category and while I’ve got some really smart demand gen and a v m people on my team running some really smart plays, if we don’t have something compelling to say in market, then it’s just white noise with as competitive as our market is.

And so that’s a big focus. While I am focused on demand gen and efficiency and generating pipeline. We might pull back on some of those tactics to make sure that we are telling the right story and that we are articulating in a way that anyone cares.

[00:32:57] Peter: Makes a ton of sense. So with that we only have one, one more question that we have time for Natalie and that is my favorite one that I ask everyone is, what advice would you give to current or aspiring CMOs?

[00:33:10] Natalie: Yes. I love this question. Lots of things that I wanna give to my former self and to my current self as well. This is for the record, for the audience. This is my first official CMO gig. I have run marketing organizations a few times over the years. My first time with the CMO title, the thing I think I have learned that has made the biggest difference for me.

Learn the business. Don’t just learn all the parts of marketing. You don’t need to be an expert at everything in marketing. You need to know how to sew the puzzle pieces together and how each of them are a lever towards your success. But what you need to understand more if you’re going to sit in the C-Suite is.

How marketing impacts finance, how finance impacts marketing, and you need to be able to speak finance, how culture and HR impact marketing, how marketing impacts those things. Operations. Not just sales, not just cx. Understand the rest of your organization. Understand the financial metrics that your board and your C-Suite are looking at, and you’ll be much more well equipped to be successful and to drive change management within your org.

[00:34:20] Peter: Well, I think that’s fantastic advice. Natalie. Thrilled that you offered it and thrilled that you could be here today. I wanted to thank you for a great lively session on the next m o podcast. I wanted to thank you all in the audience for listening and ask if you have any ideas for future topics or guests.

Please drop us a note. Send us a note at Or send me a note, follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter and all those things, and thanks again for listening and thank you Natalie, and have a great day.

[00:34:53] Natalie: Thanks, Peter.