Launching a Self-hypnosis Brand to the Masses with Louise Troen of Reveri

Peter: The next C M O podcast explores topics that are on the minds of forward-thinking marketing executives from leadership and strategy to emerging technologies, and we bring these topics to life by interviewing leading experts in their fields. The next C M O is sponsored by Planful for Marketing. A leading marketing performance management solution that automates marketing, planning, financial management, and R O I optimization and hosted by me Peter Mahoney, an experienced C M O C E O board member and executive advisor.

In this episode of the next C M O podcast, I speak to Louise Troon, the C M O of Reverie. Reverie is a self hypnosis app, and Louise takes us through the story of how she took her experience from leading brands like Headspace and Bumble, along with many other notable consumer brands to tell the amazing brand story.

Of reverie and demystify the category of self-hypnosis to drive a successful business. I’m sure you’ll enjoy the show. I.

Hey Louise. Thank you so much for being on the next C M O podcast. Super excited about the conversation. And maybe we can start by you giving the audience a little bit of a background on Louise.

Louise: firstly, I’m super thrilled and pumped to be here. I’ve listened to this podcast for a long time and when I took the C M O position, We were speaking to our US agency and they mentioned this particular one, and I was like, I would love to be on it. So I’m happy and a fan to be here.

Peter: Well, the Honor is ours, so thank you for being a listener.

Louise: Of course. So I should probably start by saying, Ironically and coincidentally I never really started out in any career wanting to be a C M O. All of my friends that work in brand marketing, my friend who was the C M O of Burberry, of Charlotte Tilbury, friends that work at Airbnb, friends that are still at Bumble, they all had these aspirations to be running integrated brand marketing and paid marketing and lifestyle marketing teams of which all exist as part of the C M O portfolio.

And I never really wanted. To see myself doing all of those things. I always saw myself as a brand marketeer, a storyteller. I started my career working in communications where everything was about the headline. How can you make people feel, how can you educate people on the product functionality or the platform functionality, but how can you also enable them to leave an article or a piece of video content?

Or a broadcast piece of coverage, feeling like they’ve emotionally connected to that story as part of it. And I was lucky enough to help launch Airbnb in the UK and really saw how an underdog brand, like allowing someone into your house who is a stranger could really shift an entire category of travel.

And so quite quickly ended up getting very passionate about tech and tech for good and how technology. Enables a more inclusive, interactive, accessible world. And so found myself working for brands like Bumble, where I was the VP of marketing. More recently Headspace, the meditation app where I was the VP of global content marketing and now Reverie, which is a self hypnosis app.

But I think it’s interesting because. My entire career in each of those roles I never really followed the traditional c m O route. I never studied marketing. I studied philosophy and anthropology. So I’ve always been fascinated in this, in the study of people, why we behave the way we do, why we feel the way we do.

And I think inherently that makes me a really good consumer marketeer because I. Care deeply about why people make the decisions that they do and for what reasons. And ultimately, I think that is what marketing consists of. And I sort of stumbled and fell into a role that I never really set out to be in, which is kind of unusual compared to some of my contemporaries.

I.

Peter: Well, it’s a great story and interestingly, I just talked to another former anthropology student, c m o a guy by the name of Daniel Incandella. Daniel was the former c m o of the Indy 500 and and has now got into tech over time and things like that. It’s a really interesting guy and he thought he was the only one.

So clearly he’s not. I think it’s a fabulous background as a marketer to understand people and I think marketing has changed so much. And continues to evolve. The reality is you need curious people. I’m a big believer in sort of a good liberal arts education and sort of a good foundation and I mean, my degrees are in physics and computer science.

I. And and it’s probably just as good as anything else to be a marketer and these days because you just have to love to learn and love to figure things out. That’s, I think, the most important thing. Well, I do wanna hear a little bit more too About just set the table a little bit with with Rie because it’s it’s an exciting new thing and you’re brand new as we’re recording this right now you’re a couple months in or something, right?

Louise: Yeah, I’m three months in probably to the biggest career challenge that I’ve ever had in terms of taking a consumer marketing product to the masses and making a category. Self hypnosis or hypnotherapy, which is wildly misunderstood, more often not than not completely misinterpreted and has already sort of got a brand around it, that the audience and the consumer and the entertainment industry has made organically for it.

Most people don’t believe in it. If they do end up going for any hypnosis treatment, it’s probably the last option after they’ve tried. Other types of treatment or therapies. And the reason why we’re so excited about this job is because hypnosis works. We have thousands of people using the product, thousands of people reaching out to us, telling them that they have been cured of chronic pain.

Stop smoking after 30 years. Have never slept better after two sessions. And unlike a practice like meditation, which is still incredibly powerful, I worked for Headspace. The impact can be and often is immediate. So it’s not something that you need to practice consistently in your everyday life as a management tool.

It is. Capable and able to cure habitual patterns of behavior, which at a time when our mental hi health crisis is on the rise, despite all of these other offerings, treatment and therapy wise, I don’t see a better time for something with no side effects. That is essentially you taking control of your own mind and brain to be taken mainstream.

And what’s so interesting, and I think fun and what a wonderful challenge that myself and my team have is there’s all this stigma around hypnosis in the same way that there was stigma around female pleasure, around psychedelics, around dating online. I’ve existed and worked and freelanced and consulted in all of these categories, and that’s where I get excited.

It’s like, how can we break through culture leveraging. The marketing channels, which you and I are so familiar with all the way through from PR and social strategies, down to retention and referral capabilities to bring in more people to benefit the impact of this incredible practice. I initially was skeptical when they reached out to me, and I think that’s really important to mention in the same way that I was skeptical about joining Bumble and didn’t end up joining them for about a year.

After the relationship had started, and it’s a really good lesson that instead of taking the easy road and working for the big blockbuster brands, the real difference in my career, and I really encourage anyone else in the industry to think like this is if you believe in it, and if you personally as a consumer, Have been taken down the channel of changing your mind.

That’s where the power of marketing can really accelerate the opportunity for that. And as we accelerate that for hypnosis, we will build alongside a very robust commercial brand because, If there’s anything that people are more desperate for, it’s to feel happier, to sleep better, to not be afraid of flying, to not feel pain anymore.

So from a creative, passion, potential and opportunistic perspective, I don’t see a product experience that is any more powerful at this current stage of our mental health crisis.

Peter: Oh my God, there’s so many ways I can go from here. Now, Louise you’ve given me a lot to to, to think about in a very short period of time. And so let me try and pick it apart. So one of the things that immediately came to mind that I found fascinating is that you went into this challenge as a marketer.

Where you have a a category that’s been defined and there’s some skepticism about a category, and I love the analogs that you brought up, that, that are, you know, where the skepticism has been debunked over time, and I wonder about the decision. Process that you made from a positioning perspective to call it hypnosis?

Did you have to call it hypnosis or could you call it wellness or it’s kind of meditation, or do you rebrand it? What was the decision like around sort of leaning in and saying, I’m gonna do it the hard way to tell you the truth, and I’m gonna make a whole category perceived differently over time.

Louise: There are enough wellness products, too many wellness products, even I as a consumer, the language around wellness feels weak, lofty. Unhelpful. Not backed by science, not clinical. All of these things that people are looking for when they buy into a product. I want it to be science backed, clinically proven.

I want decades of craftsmanship or research to be built into it. That’s how I’m gonna part ways with the money in my pocket. Hypnosis has all those things, but the practice of hypnosis has to stay as the language is because all of the academic research, if you Google it, if you look at any of the work that David, Dr.

David Beagle, our co-founder has done, has been centered around the decades of practicing that has been done around hypnosis. So if we. Rebranded it completely. And we discussed as a team moving into hypnotherapy as language because it felt softer and less less contentious is probably the right word.

And the decision was, let’s go right for the tension. This is where the magic happens, where we start demystifying. Because when you see hypnosis, and let’s say there’s a headline we actually launched an article yesterday with the UK publication that said, Could hypno hypnosis actually be the treatment to chronic stress?

That for me is a real win because it triggers and challenges people that already think something about hypnosis into rethinking. And that tension is where you click on an article. That tension is where you go, yeah, I’ve heard about this. This is sort of something which I’m intrigued about because we’re interested in tension, we’re interested in debate and conflict in that contentious space.

And we are super confident. That we have the clinical backing to debunk all of those myths. So we’ve actually got a. An article that we’re working on at the moment, which is sort of 20 things that you think about hypnosis and how we’re gonna debunk that. And in order for us to be able to debunk, we had to stand side by side with our, you know, semantic enemy and actually go hypnosis works.

And you know, just like many of the other categories, the assumptions around it need to be reframed. Just like your mental health might need to be. And we, and I really stand by that decision. I think meeting the tension front on and demystifying and dispelling those myths, there’s opportunity in what people already think about it.

Whereas if we had started an entirely new category, we would be starting from scratch and starting from some point of education, even if it is inaccurate is more opportunistic in my perspective.

Peter: Well, you sold me. I think the approach seems to be the right one. I, the, and a couple of things really stood out. You know, one is the idea of the fact that, hey, it is a category and you, there’s a lot of power in being able to. Leverage a category, and if you can be the one who sort of, creates the variant of that category, sort of the subcategory that is the consumer acceptable and there’s a business model behind it then that is super powerful.

The other thing that you brought up, I think it was really interesting that any marketer should really. Take to heart is the idea of competitive positioning where you’re trying to fit in. So if you position yourself in if you position yourself in a category of wellness, I. You’re right, it’s super crowded.

But if you say no that wellness stuff is great, but we’re in this self hypnosis thing and we’ve now got to the point where we’ve made this, you know, we’re self hypnosis and now it works because of these things. Right? So it, I. It’s a, it’s an interesting positioning thing. So one, one of the things I wanted to ask a about the business model for something like this that’s kind of interesting, is that, so I’m actually, I was a I was a Headspace user and head Headspace saved me, I.

When I was going through the depths of stress of going through and trying to finance and ultimately going through and selling my company, I have to tell you it’s one of the most stressful things you can go through. I lost 20 pounds of that. I didn’t really need to lose. And it was incredibly stressful and I remember going in and it’s being a c e o is like the loneliest job in the world.

And I remember going in and I’d seen this thing before and I found it and it helped. It helped give me this little bit of relief to just, you know, stop that thing. And it’s something that a lot of CEOs talk about with each other. It’s like, man it is a stressful, incredible thing. Here’s the problem with it though, from a business perspective, I had like this incredibly stressful moment.

I went and I used the thing and I’m. I’m not stressed right now, you know, so I is there a is, how do you think about sort of retention for for a product like this where it may be, there may be episodes where you need, may need it more.

Louise: So it’s a great question and one that I was really impressed with our founders on, which I also asked when I started and the response was, Let’s just start as a brand, as a mission led brand by saying if someone comes in with chronic pain and they do two sessions and they’re cured and they leave the app, that is success for us.

We will be able to find our commercial viability along the way if we start with the impact that we’re trying to make, rather than what many other apps and many that I’ve worked for. An aggressive pressure to keep people actively in the app through various different methods who aren’t leaving the experience going.

This changed my life. I smoked for 40 years now I don’t smoke. That opportunity to find advocates in that experience will lead to knock-on effect in terms of network effect, referral potential, various different opportunistic capabilities with gifting, and I was really impressed that’s where they started because.

I genuinely believe that if you do the right thing and you start with your members first, we never call them CU customers. I hate the word customer. It’s like we’re part of the same family here, like me and you, Peter. It’s like now we’ve met. If you call me next week and you need my help, I’ll be there. We are breaking down this fourth wall of brand person versus customer.

It’s like we’re all in this game together trying to make a difference. And all live a better, happier life. So I would say number one, that’s where we’ve started. Interestingly. People that are coming in for sleep, stress, chronic pain. We have a section within the app called Moment. So most of the sessions are eight to 10 minutes.

Quit alcohol, quit smoking, quit vaping. They’re interactive and a lot of people find that they’ve been cured or they’re. Feeling a lot stronger after one session. 94% of people felt better after one session on chronic pain was our latest statistic. But what’s interesting is that they’re coming back to the moment as almost like pulse checks at various times during the month.

So you might have been cured from smoking, but you wanna come in to manage the urge when you are at that event or that wedding or that moment in your life where. You don’t wanna move back into it, but you need a little bit of guided support. And so there’s sort of this marriage between helping people cure, stop, recalibrate their brain chemistry through the self hypnosis experience.

And then there’s the, we all in life at every moment have urges to think, do, feel, say things. And it’s really about having that added support in your pocket when you are dealing with something as aggressive as. Addiction or a phobia or as you mentioned, you know, chronic stress, which are, they’re debilitating.

But we were, we didn’t develop moments for that reason. We developed it because we thought people might not have the time to do the longer sessions. But I think what we’re finding is the more success people are getting from one to two sessions, the more they want to come in because they trust the experience overall.

And that’s been quite an interesting insight.

Peter: Well, it’s interesting, as a marketer, you must have come in to this thing and having those conversations. I’m sure was really powerful with the founders. And what you’re doing is you are relying on being true to your brand promise. And fundamentally if you have a big, valuable brand promise.

You stay true to that and you deliver on that over time, you’ll create lots of value. And it’s the, and it’s funny, it’s what a lot of people miss is that they’ll come up with the campaign, right? But how do you really connect the, especially with a consumer product, but not exclusively with a consumer product, you, you have to fully deliver on that brand promise over time.

B, because if you weren’t doing that, and if you weren’t thinking in the way that you thought about those moments, as an example and thinking about what can we do to create the best outcome for our members, then then you would have a churn problem and you would have a, you know, a business problem fundamentally.

And that’s the thing that I think a lot of pe a lot of people miss.

Louise: Well, what’s interesting Peter about that is some people that have moved out of the product because. They are cured or had such a fantastic experience. We have a kind of mechanic where we encourage them to be part of our community, whether it’s our Facebook forum, we hold events. We have an incredible community leader called Shelby who sits on my team, who constantly is keeping in touch with these incredible people that have had pretty life-changing experiences, and it’s really incredible the peer-to-peer support that they end up giving each other.

Because the transformation is so extreme, and I think we also misunderstood the passion when people go through these transformative shifts that people have to pass it on. The only sort of assumption against anything similar I can think about is people in AA where it’s almost like this is a self-fulfilling prophecy to help other people.

And I think what’s been so. Wonderful to see is that organic. Desire for peer-to-peer support that we are facilitating, but we don’t want it to be reverie tells you to do X, Y, and Z. We want our community to be telling each other, and that’s really what community is. If you think of any effective, promising progressive community in real life, it is where different people from different experiences are supporting each other at different levels.

And that’s something that’s also really important to me that we build out and invest in.

Peter: Yeah it’s interesting because one of the things I was going to ask you on my list was, you know, what did you learn from places like Bumble as an example, which may have some similar experiences in what was different in, and one thing that struck me about that is that. You know, a network like, like Bumble may be just fundamentally competitive, right?

So if you think about it is, oh, you know, it’s, I’m all out for me. I need to find, you know, my person and I need to beat the other person to that person to make sure versus I. What Reverie is doing, it is more of a community thing where there there’s some benefit of there, at least feeling that I should be doing better for the overall community versus the sharp elbows.

You may have that. Ooh, I wanna score that good one on

Louise: Yeah, no, that’s spot on. I think also, You know, as much as the categories are pretty dis like distinctive, they were both defining in their respective rights. But what I will say is there is nothing more isolating than a mental health experience challenge, as you know, you know, going through stress. I’ve been through various different experiences in my life, and regardless of your.

Privilege, wealth access, how popular you are, how successful you are, it is. Impossibly debilitating. When you’re experiencing insomnia, chronic pain, acute stress, depression, anxiety, et cetera, et cetera, the list goes on, and community and contact around shared experience is one of the biggest, most effective respites.

To feel like you are not alone, and to know and see someone who has gone through the motions and has passed through the experience that you’re feeling is so debilitating. That is completely different to the dating world, which is. Let’s get a bunch of incredibly fun people in a room who are all different, you know, sexualities and genders, and we will let humanity do its own thing.

I think what we’re talking about here with mental health is people need a space where they feel really safe because of the sensitivity of it. But the brilliant thing about that is, and what’s so similar about both experiences is when you put both of those categories of people in a room, you know that they’re both there for the same reason.

These people wanna connect around their mental health experiences. These people wanna find a day or a partner or whatever it might be. So there were some similarities in terms of making sure that the environments are set up to optimize the need states of those groups. But I would also say that. The impact that I’ve seen from community, you know, from both Headspace and Reverie has been much more powerful in terms of social impact.

And interestingly, we have a, you know, much stronger community at Reverie than I actually saw at Headspace. Because I think meditation is quite a. Individual journey, and a lot of us are practicing it, but when someone says, oh my gosh, I’ve tried to stop smoking for 40 years, I’ve done one session. They wanna tell people they wanna go into the community, they wanna shout about it, they wanna tell all their friends, they wanna give loads of codes out.

And we never really built that into our business model. But now we’re thinking through and the language of referrals isn’t what we’ll call it, but like, how can you help more people and how can we create this viral, visceral. Experience for members and our family within Reverie that they feel like when they win, others win too.

Peter: Yeah. A amazing, so, one, one of the other things I’ve, there’s so many things on my list and I’m not gonna get to all of them, but one of the things that I wanted to ask you, ’cause we’re in this. You’re about 90 days into your a hundred day plan, right? So you just started as a C M O for a new thing. Are you the first C M O, by the way, for the company?

Louise: Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. So tell me one, did you have a hundred day plan of some kind or whatever it was? It doesn’t have to pay a hundred days. Maybe it was two days, maybe it was 2000. Did you have a sort of a ramp up plan and. How is it different from your expectations now that you’re probably most of the way through then?

Louise: That is a great question. So my c e o Massimo is really passionate about very specific OKRs and he was the chief. Product officer, tech officer at Depop, he is incredibly smart and fast-paced and was really quite inspiring to me when I joined. With regards to the, this is our objective for the quarter.

It’s broken down into these four tactics in my department, products department, engineering’s department, and we stuck to those for the whole quarter. So, You know, on our side, they were things like making sure that the, there’s a brand refresh that we feel really strong about the look and feel and the strategic positioning.

We start taking RY to market from a communications perspective. What does that look like education wise? What does the reach of media look like in the UK versus the us our community? How are we strategically championing our forums? Do we need to open more forums? How do we make sure that they are highly engaging?

And then there, there were some others around. Paid marketing as, as well. And I think I felt really strong. I think I did that week one with the team identifying, you know, these are our four areas of which we need to deliver in the first quarter to allow us to ramp up for significant growth in Q three.

And we are very much sticking to those plans. There have been a few things that we’ve had to pivot on along the way. But generally speaking the most important thing that I think has changed is that we’ve seen different growth levers along the way. So we made assumptions around X channel being really effective for us, but actually Y channel brought in more installs.

And so just being able to pivot on a weekly basis and setting a culture where people don’t feel like. That’s because we made a mistake. It’s because our entire culture is built around optimization. ’cause often, you know, optimization is only really spoken about within performance channels. It’s like, okay, we invest in this channel, we change this creative, we double down on these keywords.

Okay, now we see kind of how our unit economics change. And for us, we’re setting a culture of we keep delivering these things week on week. And then we review them week on week and are able to go, okay, we’re gonna park this opportunity, we’re gonna double down on. Influence the strategy or that particular podcast was really effective.

What are the other three podcasts within the same category with high intent users. We’re gonna part these conversations with growth partnerships because this is delivering more impact. So we’re constantly, and I actually really don’t like this term, but we almost need to come up with a new one. In terms of moving the goalposts, I think there’s such negative connotation around moving the goalposts.

It’s more we are. Leaning into the opportunities that are right in front of us on a weekly basis. So I think setting those OKRs out at the beginning of each quarter, and we work very strictly on a quarterly basis. We don’t think further than that because the industry, the consumer landscape, the impact, you know, is changing faster than monthly at the moment.

So we, as much as we think long term we’re, we are definitely a company that are planning. Quarterly and yeah, I would say some of the changes are more the assumptions we made around channel impact versus what we’re actually seeing.

Peter: It’s interesting because I’ve been advising a, an early stage company in the generative AI space, and they think weekly. I mean, it’s amazing how quickly, and you can see with the pace of change in an industry like yours and like that, that you, it’s, you have to keep a strategic heading, but you have to be in this mode where you can.

You can pretty rapidly iterate it. It made me think that as someone who’s a natural brand storyteller, how do you channel that operational side of the role as A C M O? ’cause you have to do it all. You have to not only be I. The lightning rod to tell the brand story, but you have to be the person who keeps the trains running on time and has, you know, strong financial outcomes in mind and things like that.

How do you balance those? I.

Louise: So I think assuming that you can be as strong in every field is just setting yourself up to fail and. You know, I think it’s fair to say that the C M O role and space is one of the highest turnover roles I’ve ever seen. Most CMOs at the moment I’m seeing are at companies for a year, maybe slightly less, and then they’re moving on.

Now we’ve got this new concept of, you know, fractional CMOs. ’cause everyone’s like, oh, I don’t wanna be a proper CMOs. I’ll just be a part C M O. I think the most important thing to say is you don’t have to be brilliant at everything, but you have to understand enough. About each of the areas to be able to have a strategic, commercial and conceptual conversation about them.

That’s the first thing. The second thing is you’ve gotta be really strong in upper, mid, or lower funnel. You’ve gotta be really strong at, in at least one, if not two to three, well, two of those areas minimum. And then you have to hire. Absolute superstars for your blind spots. I think as a C M O, it’s more about how do all the pieces connect, and do you understand how each of the train carriages need to come together and do you know where you’re going?

As long as you understand that and you hire the right people to fill in your blind spots, I think you’ll be a successful C M O. The assumption that you can be really strong at pr, really good at strategy, really good at social, really effective at lifecycle, great in paid marketing, a brilliant leader.

Also humble can be a spokesperson, can do the financial. It’s like, this is absurd. You would never put that on your dating app profile that you could, you would want someone that do does all those things. So it’s sort of, it’s sort of a scary space for anyone in that area because it’s almost unachievable.

But I think if you are strong minded in, you know, I’m really good at upper to middle funnel. I really understand the paid acquisition space and I’m really interested in it, but I have superstars around me. That are specialists. And as long as I can inspire, empower, give them the autonomy to lead in that respective area, whilst connecting all the other dots, that for me is really what success as a C M O will be.

And if I put too much pressure on myself to be a specialist in every area, I will end up losing Part of the reason why they hired me at Revie, which was because I was. Strong as a brand builder and in my kind of leadership capabilities. So I think having the confidence to say, that’s not my subject expertise and I’m gonna bring someone in to thought partner with me on that is, is a kind of brave move that we all need to make.

And I’ve definitely, you know, I’ve got the support of an incredible c e o who is, you know, he actually said to me today, you know, Louise as a coach. I wouldn’t ask my I wouldn’t ask my center midfield. And my strikers to play in defense, that would be a bad coach decision. So to ask you to do defense midfield, striker, goalie, it’s like at some point you’re gonna lose the game because there’s no way.

So instead, you know, he said, I’m gonna put you in the striker in the midfield position ’cause that’s where your strongest we’re gonna hire you. A really good goalie and a really good defense. And I think that analogy was brilliant because in any team there are always. Specialists in different areas, and it’s more about, you know, how do those pieces fit together effectively.

Peter: Well, this is a perfect lead in, I think you must have planned this too. My, my last question that I ask everyone is what advice would you give Louise to current and aspiring CMOs?

Louise: Too many VPs of marketing, heads of marketing, junior marketing managers that I’ve mentored weight for, Permission from somebody that doesn’t know. What’s going out there, going on out there in the wild? If you have the capabilities to take risks and experiment, I would always encourage you to ask for forgiveness and not for permission.

I would say that’s sort of how I made my career trajectory Where it is now, is that I took gambles on certain campaigns, projects, investments, that I really backed in myself because I knew. What the consumer would respond to. And I think a lot of CMOs at the moment are afraid to take big betts and big risks because there is such a pressure on financial return.

But if you can build a culture of experimentation and optimize as you go and keep asking for forgiveness. Not permission. I think you’ll be in a much better space to go these four channels worked, these three creative routes worked in these two formats. But if we don’t test, we just will never know.

So if you can’t get that luxury from a team or a boss or an institution or infrastructure that you’re in, at least siphon off a portion of budget that is always free and capable for you to test with. Because it’s only when we test that we learn and only when we fail that we grow.

Peter: Fantastic advice and I agree. Be curious and be an experimenter. And you can do that responsibly. And you actually articulated a really great way to do that, which is to, you should design into your plan experimentation. I. And and that’s e exactly. Love that advice. I think it’s really really right on.

So thank you so much Louise, for being on the next C M O podcast. It was a thrill. It was quite a ride hearing hearing about the story. And clearly you’re very passionate about reverie and about telling the brand story, which I’m really excited about. So we do, by the way, we’ll have a link in the show notes to to get download ee so please do that.

And they even created a special link because they’re metrics orient oriented organization so they can see how many thousands of people downloaded from the next C M O podcast. So definitely check that out. And so, make sure you you follow the next C M O and Planful on Twitter and LinkedIn and all those other places.

If you have ideas for topics or guests, you can send them to the next cmo@planful.com. And thanks again, Louise, for a fantastic conversation and have a great day.

Louise: Peter. Take care.

Peter: I.