Peter: [00:00:00] Hey, Stacy, I’m so excited to have you on the next CMO podcast. It’s really fantastic to have the opportunity to to speak to you. And you’ve had an amazing career. So if I think about it, you’ve had a career, they included CMO roles in technology companies, financial services, organization, healthcare work services providers, and even.

which I find really fascinating. So tell us about the story, how you got through that amazing career over the last, like five years based on how young you

Stacy: based on how. Oh, well, that’s great, Peter. Thank you. That’s the best thing that you’re going to say. First of all, it’s a pleasure to be here and it’s great to meet you. you know, I’ve had some amazing opportunities and I have been in a variety of different industries.

I think the common thread and what drew me to the opportunities and what made me, I think, [00:01:00] appropriate for the roles was the need to fundamentally transform marketing from. A cost center to a revenue generator. And so in each one of those instances casino, which was so much fun, you mentioned that one financial services childcare, there was a need to improve what was a relatively flat revenue line and really dig in and understand the customer journey.

And build a strategy on how top line and creative revenue could be reached and to provide that story and lead the transformation through attaining it. So it’s been amazing. I mean it’s been a wild ride. Most of it has been either in publicly traded or through private equity. And so you know, I’ve learned a ton along the way.

Peter: So, so much to talk about here.

Stacy: much to talk about here.

Peter: [00:02:00] and th the first thing I wanted to get into though, is the transformation that you just talked about.

Stacy: just

Peter: Taking marketing from a cost center to a value center or a revenue center is an incredibly powerful and important thing to do. In fact, I was just talking to a really bright young woman from a credit union.

Who’s one of my customers who is going through that journey, and she’s really excited about it, that she made that transformation.

Stacy: that transformation.

Peter: one question I have about

Stacy: I have about

Peter: is in each cases when you’re making that transformation, was it instigated because there was a material, external sponsorship, meaning did you have a CEO and or a board who said, we’ve got to do this, or did you just show up and say, Hey, here’s a big opportunity.

I’ve got to make this

Stacy: I’ve got to make this transformational change.

I love that question for, you know, because there are so many CMOs and marketing people that are actually trying to make that [00:03:00] transformation and thinking about how do I get traction doing it in my almost all of them was either private equity had come in and taken a stake in the company and needed to and identified synergies.

Hey, I know that we can increase customer value or we need to have a new way of acquiring customers. Or it was a publicly traded company where the board and CEO had seen. Flat or declining EBITDA and increasing a marketing expense. And so in each one of the instances, the company was not necessarily a distressed asset, but there was clarity on where either in a commoditized industry, for example, childcare, right, or a gaming, there’s a whole lot of other childcare providers.

There’s a whole lot of other cases. And in case of financial services, you can get a personal loan or a mortgage from a variety of different people. How do you differentiate [00:04:00] really put together a financial plan that maps to higher. You’re going to really make a difference in that customer experience.

And so it’s a really great question because I know a lot of marketing leaders struggle because they can see an opportunity to either drive customer experience or acquire different customers through segmentation. But the organization, sometimes isn’t ready to say yes. You know, we’re ready to make that CapEx investment in technology or yes, we’re ready to outsource contact strategy.

And so I was really called in when there was a problem statement that was profound. The company was either, as I said, really struggling financially or private equity, wanted to see a really nice trajectory and growth within the next three to five years. And so in.

Peter: Excellent. That’s a, it’s a great way to, to join a company, obviously, because one,

Stacy: one,

Peter: I alluded to you’re, you’re coming with.

Stacy: you’re, you’re coming [00:05:00]

Peter: Expectation of change a level of sponsorship coming externally to say that, Hey, we’re, we’re ready to do something fundamentally different. And the other thing that you mentioned that was really important, Stacy was the fact that you need a little bit of patience to get there.

It’s a three to five-year journey to get to the point where you’re going to make an effect, especially in a larger organization, a meaningful transformation. So that’s. It sounds like some really amazing opportunities. I I’d love to understand

Stacy: love to

Peter: if you look at step one, so what’s the first thing you do when you enter into this new organization for the first time and start to say I’ve, I’ve got to

Stacy: I’ve got to

Peter: one of my journey of transformation.

What is that? Step one.

Stacy: What is that? Step one.

Oh, it’s, it’s learn, you know, it’s let go of everything that you’ve done before and all the great accomplishments and failures that you’ve had and deeply [00:06:00] learn about that business because.

Sometimes as a marketing executive, you remember up, this is the acquisition tactic that I had in place in this situation, or, oh, I know that customer segment I’ve marketed to them before, or, oh, I know that pricing and it’s not, I mean, for me, it’s asked every single question that you can and deeply understand the financials of the organization and actually do the job.

And I think that’s important because. For example, you know, in financial services, I actually sat next to a broker and started, you know, writing a mortgage. In the case of childcare. I actually worked in a childcare facility. You know, with casinos, for example, I was responsible for yielding the hotel with pricing.

I actually went to the hotel on Friday and checked in customers, right? So it’s a, it’s a real deep understanding of first the financials and the history of the company, talking to everyone. Learning [00:07:00] everything that you can learn and then really getting a perspective from the customer and at point of sale so that you can formulate kind of a strategy on what would I do differently.

And it’s hard for marketers to protect the experience ones. Cause you know, you see that low-hanging fruit, you want to come in and you know, quickly say I can fix that. I can fix that. And I, you know, my advice to anybody moving into a new role is don’t. Deeply, deeply learn the problem statement and spend the time understanding the financials, understanding the math, the market, the competitors, and deeply understanding and customer.

So for me, you know, I actually have to hold back because I’ve been doing this for a while and I come in and, oh, I can see those three things, but really saying, no, you’re not going to make any decisions. I’m going to go through really that deep period of learning and understanding because that’s where credibility.

Is learned, you know, you’re already there, you have the job, you’re there to transform marketing it. It isn’t about making quick decisions. It’s about really looking holistically [00:08:00] at what is the change that has to happen in the customer perspective. And you know what I mean? Peter marketers know this. It’s usually never in marketing.

It’s at point of sale. It’s at digital interface. It’s at pricing it’s in everybody else’s organization. Influencing others has to come from only a deep understanding of the great things they already have in place. So I would say the first thing is learn,

Peter: Well, it’s a great place to start. And the, you reminded me of that last statement,

Stacy: of that, last statement,

Peter: that being a CMO, it’s kind of like being a CEO for, for me now you sort of have you have often all of the accountability and none of the authority, right? You, you actually can’t especially do everything, but you’re always thinking.

Stacy: but you’re always The

Peter: one to blame. If there’s a bad customer experience, as an example, it must be a marketing issue, but I, there are two other things that you mentioned that I wanted to dig into a little bit more because I really got excited when you mentioned them. One is sort of [00:09:00] understanding the way the service or the product is delivered to the customer customer.

What is that customer experience? And a lot of people.

Stacy: And a lot of people,

Peter: over and say customer experience. That’s what my website looks like, but really understanding the way that the customer receives value from the organization in a meaningful way is incredibly important. And then the second thing that you mentioned was the idea of deeply studying and understanding the P and L.

So what’s going on in the business, whether the w what, what are the levers that need to be. Adjusted to, to make sure that I can deliver a reasonable outcome. I, because what I often see is as marketers come in and they say, well, great. You know, all, all I need is four times the budget and I’m fine. And the reality is.

Stacy: the reality

Peter: may not work that may not really, and really understanding sort of what your perpetual model looks like for this business. What do you expect it to look like over this next three to five-year [00:10:00] horizon? And I find that marketers and CMOs are not universally financially adept and, and I think it’s an area where where there’s going to be increasing pressure for CMOs to really deeply understand.

Stacy: deeply

Peter: The F the financials of the organization that they’re participating in. So is that something that you learned along the way? Or did you have a background? Did you go to business school for that? Tell me a little bit about sort of how you started to get more comfortable understanding the financial makeup of the businesses that you’re marketing.

Stacy: that you’re marketing. Sure. There’s a lot in there and those are all really good things. He hit two things. One was customer experience and then financials. I’m going to take financials first and then.

Customer experience and the role that a CML place, I think the best in most successful CMO or CRO, and I’ve been a chief revenue officer is actually not a [00:11:00] marketing person. And I’m just going to pause. Why, why would I say that? It’s because of the fact that creating value or working with a private equity firm or a board of directors on a value creation plan.

It has to be done with the eyes of say, McKinsey, financial analysts and marketing has to be able to proforma impact. This is what I want to do with customer experience. This is the lifetime value. If I spend this, if you’re looking at making changes into the customer experience, it usually requires cap ex you know, digital transformation.

You have to build a business case. And so I think it’s very important. CMOs first and foremost, our operators, particularly in point of sale. I mean, you have to be able to carry a region. In my case, you know, I can’t make recommendations to general managers in casinos, unless I could step into that role and I had to learn it, how do they carry the bag?

Where’s [00:12:00] their profitability. And I did that. I was responsible for you know, the revenue growth. And so I do think it’s very important. CMOs and CRS actually understand deeply the value creation plan. Look at your three to five to seven year stock or growth plan and, and support it and live with. You know, I have actually been a board member and I’ve hired CMOs.

And the one thing that I always fear for CMOs coming to present to me as a board member is, you know, the CEO and the CFO get up and they talk about how horrible the quarter is. And the COO comes in and talks about all the click-through rates. Really great. And we have, and it’s like, Lately disconnected from the business and they’re discounted as business leaders.

Right? So I think that’s super important too, to recognize that the role of a CMO is to drive value. It is not just about acquiring you know, customers [00:13:00] and doing so more profitably it’s about lifetime value and experience. And so that has to be modeled and grounded and finance, and that you have to be able to stand up in front of a board and do an investment.

I remember joining you know, in, in the gaming world marketing actually prince money. That’s literally the job is if you come into a casino and you have a loyalty club card marketing sends you actual dollars that you can use, think about it. If you get that wrong in, in financial services, marketing.

Is tied squarely to underwriting and.

Well, you can’t miss that. Right? So really building those skills, understanding how to do a proforma understanding and value creation and the return on investment is important. I think

the other thing you mentioned and I’ll hit on it quickly as customer experience. Well, my goodness, how has that changed in the last two years?

Peter: Just a Chad.

Stacy: [00:14:00] did people yeah, just to just attack right. You know, if you, if you really think about customer experience and technology disruption, I feel as though it’s happening faster with every year, I mean, just faster, you know, the, the channels that are being consumed, you know, you’re seeing your children sitting together streaming TV while they’re texting each other on their phones.

Just think about the different world that we’re in today. And so. You know, customer experience. I also think in addition to the financial acumen that CMOs need to build, there’s a technology aspect, digital marketing, and really understanding the. And if you want to have a conversation about advertising, all I care is about return on invested capital.

That’s all I want to hear from any of my marketers, any of my marketing leaders, because if I can open a new office, if I can spend that to acquire a business versus spending in marketing, that’s what. So marketers should [00:15:00] literally look at everything they do and say, is this truly the best use of the dollar?

Or should I use it for acquisition? Should I drop it to the bottom line? And when you’re talking about customer experience, it’s usually very expensive and has cap ex tied to it. So you really have to understand what improving customer service looks like and the customer journey before you start making recommendations about technology or contact strategy, because if you can’t perform.

It’s not real,

Peter: Well, th th this is music to my ears, Stacy, on so many levels. First of all,

Stacy: First of all,

Peter: wanted to comment on your, your mention of how CMOs present to boards. In fact, the I have a chapter in my book.

Stacy: have a chapter in my book.

Peter: That says how to present marketing results to your CMO in board, your CEO and board. Because I identified this as a huge problem, seeing it all the time.

So a little bit about, we talked a little bit about my background, but,

Stacy: my

Peter: When I [00:16:00] was a COO for

Stacy: COO for

Peter: A decent sized public company. We did about a hundred acquisitions while I was there. And in every time there was a new marketing leader that came in they’d sort of present results. And I realized I had to train them all to communicate.

Stacy: to communicate

Peter: present results from the lens of someone who had a level of financial acumen. And I think for, for me personally, my trends transformation of a marketer happened after doing a stint as a general manager of a business as having real operating

Stacy: real operating

Peter: And, and it’s interesting because I think I stumbled into, I.

Stacy: into do I

Peter: it was because it was my incredible thoughtfulness, but I don’t think it was when I took over this, this small business inside this, this bigger company. The first thing I did is I said, let me spend half a day in customer service. And, and just listen to what customers are saying. And it was just incredibly

Stacy: incredibly

Peter: To hear what [00:17:00] customers were, were one complaining

Stacy: one complaining

Peter: but at the same time they were.

Stacy: same time, they

Peter: the middle of their complaints, they talk about how deeply they depended on and loved this

Stacy: on and loved this

Peter: And so you, you can really, if you really understand that kind of customer experience as the customer is actually really extracting value, hopefully from your product, what is, what is that experience like?

And if you understand the good and the bad, I think that’s a great place to, to start with.

Stacy: to start

Peter: So I did want to talk a little bit about your, your current assignment. So currently you’re you’re in a role as the COO of Heartland

Stacy: of Heartland

Peter: And you’re a DSO or a dentist services organization, I think is the industry term.

But I I’d love to understand first set the table for, for what Heartland is. And, and secondly, help us understand what any in your, in, in this particular transport.

Stacy: particular transformation. So I would describe, even though Heartland is [00:18:00] in the DSO category, they’re probably the farthest from a DSO that there is Heartland is a team of people that we were founded by a doctor, Dr.

Workman, and we support doctors and their offices. So it’s amazing. Or an over 38 states, we serve over 1600 offices and we help those offices operationally, we help them buy supplies and we help them with marketing. And the company has been experiencing phenomenal growth due to its philosophy and culture, which is where doctor led.

So unlike other DSOC, We’ll lean in and, you know, kind of push an agenda. We don’t do that. We actually have an amazing set of services and products and help and support and clinical expertise that we offer to doctors. But it is a community of doctors I say to myself all the time, why wasn’t I a dentist?

Like why didn’t I know that there was a company that was [00:19:00] dedicated to me being successful. I joined Heartland because quite frankly, of the. You know, I, I’ve been really blessed to be in opportunities that I probably wasn’t qualified for, but somebody said, oh, I’ve worked with her before, give her a shot at it.

And so I’ve been at panicked a few times. Like, I’m not sure I can do that. Right. I’m not sure that I can lead product strategy or I’m not sure I can do these things. And so I, I, at the time, looking at Heartland was lucky enough to have some other things and it was Heartland all day long because of first and foremost, it was the culture, which was a true service culture to doctors.

And if anybody comes from an operations led organization, they know, and I believe this it’s almost like a religious debate. We could have what happens within the four walls is the most important. And when you get a multiunit, whether it’s childcare or banking or casinos or DSOC, and you have a corporate organization that’s far away from those four walls, it starts dictating operating [00:20:00] practices.

You become a very top-down organization and Heartland is not a truly serve the doctors and they make the decisions and our job is to support them. So the culture really is something that. Being in a multiunit for the last 15 years. I know that that’s the right culture because you step away really quickly from doing the right thing.

Unless you have the people who are running the business within the four walls, making the decision. And the second thing behind culture was the leadership team. I think in all of my, my roles, I really was so impressed. The caliber of people that I would be working with, I was just absolutely taken aback by my peers by the CEO, pat power.

And I wanted to be part of something that I thought was very different and I think. Gosh, I’ve been lucky. I mean, I I’ve worked for several private equity firms. I’m around people who are super smart. I mean, I’ve asked myself a few times, what am I doing at this table? Right. I mean, I’ve, [00:21:00] I think I’ve gotten invited because I’ve successfully, successfully transacted about or assisted with four companies.

And so maybe that learned me as a Vida the table, but I would still question, what am I doing here? Right. And I think that with Heartland dental, I found a place that has cold. It has amazing leadership and dedication to growing its leadership. And they just work harder and smarter together. I’ve never experienced that.

I will tell you the question that you asked about where are we in the marketing transformation? You know, we’re a really big startup Heartland is growing exponentially. So we are actually at the beginning. We’re at a point where we’re looking at building people, process and technology, implementing CRM.

Building marketing, planning, and analysis, looking at product design

doing all the segmentation, work about customers and value and providing a support model to our offices. So it’s going to be it’s going to be a really [00:22:00] good run. And we’re starting early in the game. I’m delighted about not only the opportunity

but you know, the team to do it with.

I do think that’s one thing, Peter, that. CMOs CRS, you know, digital officers, I’ve kind of played those a bunch of those roles. You ask yourself two questions. When you look at a role, you look at the problem statement, right? You really look at the parts of me. Can I actually move that stock, understand the P and L understand the business, do my skills.

And again, it’s just you in the mirror, looking at this role, forget about, you know, the sexiness of the, you know, the title or the, can I add value? And then the second thing you want to ask yourself, do I want to do it with the team? That’s there? Are they ready for it? Are they ready for me? Are they ready for the transformation?

And for me, that was my decision, but it was also why, because I said, wow, this is my skillset. In building, you know, value creation plans and working transformation is there. And the [00:23:00] organization is ready and wanting to in the leadership team is the right leadership team to do it. So I think those are two things

that, you know, people should think about when they’re looking at.

Peter: It’s great advice. And I think the culture that you mentioned is, is incredibly important. And I I’ve seen it cut both ways. I’ve seen how a negative culture can have a dramatically negative effect on an otherwise amazing.

Stacy: amazing

Peter: they don’t factor that in, in how a business that’s struggling. As long as they have a strong culture can get through really difficult times.

And it, one of the things that made me think about Stacy was the fact that

Stacy: fact that you

Peter: put yourself in these positions where you’re going to affect pretty significant

Stacy: pretty significant

Peter: and. Change is really hard for an organization. And it’s hard for the existing team. So you come on board and say, Hey, we’re going to transform marketing.

How does that feel for a marketing [00:24:00] team? And how, how do you determine.

Stacy: do you

Peter: How you can get the most out of the existing team. And when you need to sort of expand your skillset and your resources to, to new and different skills that the organization may not currently possess.

Stacy: currently.

Yeah, I love that question. And it’s a really hard job and it is for everybody. If you think about every functional area, it’s, it’s what you just said. I tend to think marketing and technology just grows and changes so quickly. So asking yourself that question, Peter, which is first and foremost, what is the value creation plan?

What will drive or impact the stock or customer experience and get aligned with that leadership? And once you do, once you have clarity and consensus about this is this is the list. These are the three or four things that we will be together, whether it’s a new product line, whether it’s a new way of [00:25:00] acquiring customers, customers, whether it’s a new M and a strategy, once you do that, you then have to look at the existing skillset of the team that you have.

And that is really hard. It’s hard because you have great. Who have delivered great things. And sometimes their skillset is no longer relevant to the path in front of you. And so making some of those changes and making sure that you’re doing it in a positive way so that people understand they can grow their careers, they can navigate through those changes in a positive way is super important as a leader because as a, as a CRO or CMS, Think about wherever you are in that marketing transformation.

And, and, you know, we can talk about nascent stage versus, you know, really advanced, for example, in, in financial services is usually an industry that’s, that’s much more advanced. Think about every five to 10 years are the people who are doing your digital strategy at [00:26:00] this stage, the right ones, are you training them and educating them and growing their leadership to be ready to do the next phase because the next phase is.

So as a leader, you have to actually recognize what is that marketing transformation and look honestly at the team that you have. And if you have deficits, train them, work on leadership, stay dedicated to leadership because you’re going to need different skillsets as you navigate through that marketing transformation.

Peter: It’s really interesting because you go through a very similar thing. As I mentioned, I went through a lot of M and a before in my most recent CMO gig, I call myself a recovering CMO now and th the.

Stacy: the,

Peter: one of the most important things when you do, when you do that, it’s sort of the skills assessment and figure out it’s skills in cultural assessment.

Are these people, people who really want to belong and, and, and, and do they want to be there for part of the journey? Can they help us [00:27:00]

Stacy: they help us

Peter: And, and it’s.

Stacy: And it’s often

Peter: less

Stacy: it’s often less than.

Peter: it’s often less about the current set of skills that they possess and more about their, their cultural fit, their curiosity their, their skills that maybe are beyond the traditional marketing skills around their ability to, I find one of the most important things for a marketing leader, as an example, is the ability to sell a new idea.

Can you sell a new idea in an organization? And it’s actually my favorite interview question is I asked people to give me an example of how they sold a new concept, a new idea in the organization and made it happen because it requires all the skills that are really hard to identify. You can’t especially learn in, in school, but it’s, it’s about persuasively, communicating and listening and, and pushing through something that you believe in.

Stacy: that you believe in.

So,

Peter: w w one of the things that I was really curious [00:28:00] about in your current role at Heartland,

Stacy: role at Heartland,

Peter: Stacy is your, I think this is the first time you’re, you’re dealing with the healthcare industry. Is it the first time healthcare industry? So, so in that case, is there anything unique or challenging about dealing with with marketing in, in the healthcare system that you’re learning about for the first time?

And if so, how are you getting your navigating your way through that?

Stacy: your way through that?

Sure. I love that question by the way. About learning how to sell. I just took a note and I wanted to say, I think that’s brilliant around teaching people how to sell. And I wanted to say, I think that don’t sell, teach. If you can define the impact of an idea and you can bring other C-levels other team members through it.

And it’s their idea. You’re not pitching, you’ve got a team of people who already have consensus. So I love what you just said because. Whatever [00:29:00] marketers are doing, it will change what’s happening today. So you have to master that, right. I think is great. So to answer your question about healthcare

I think it’s, it’s hysterical that I’m actually absolutely terrified of.

To the dentist, I literally have to be put to sleep because I’m terrified of the dentist. So me learning about the procedures have been actually terrifying for me, but I’ve learned from doctors I’ve listened to doctors. I actually have visited. Offices. And they’ve imparted a lot of wisdom on how they do their jobs.

The BAS the office staff, the doctors, how they feel about their community. And so I will say while there it is different, there are some similarities, believe it or not to childcare, which is an industry that I’ve been in in the past, which is you know, when you walk into a childcare facility, how it smells, how you’re greeted, how.

Experiences what your child says just like your [00:30:00] neighbor when they go to the dentist, profoundly matters to community reputation, those things matter. The things that I’ve learned specific to healthcare. Our doctors are amazing human beings that have patients and they deal with people like me, who can’t, you know, are quivering when you go in and how they communicate with their.

What they say when they come in, what their attitude is, how they feel that day has a profound impact on their patients. When, when you go into an office, how organized, how you are welcomed, how it smells, those are all things that profoundly impact how you feel about that office and how you feel about that experience with a doctor and, you know, there’s.

I don’t know about you, but you know, I’m like, oh, how bad are my teeth there? You’re almost embarrassed sometimes to talk about your health. And yet, so many people know that oral health care is now a huge part of your [00:31:00] overall health and they want to engage. Really having the doctors in the office, staff able to handle patients, walking them through difficult conversations about procedures, about finance, making sure that they can be open and they feel good is, is really just the utmost importance.

And doctors have taught me that. And doctors at Heartland are teaching other doctors that

Peter: believe it or not. Stacy I’m.

Stacy: I’m I’m.

Peter: At the point where I think I have to ask our last question, because we’re, we’re almost at the end of our time. And this has been a fascinating conversation. This is one of the best parts of my job by the way, is I get to have conversations with interesting people like you.

And I always learn something from these discussions. So I do really appreciate what you’ve you’ve helped me understand as, as I continue through my journey of learning, how to be a. Marketing person and an executive over time. But one thing that we always like to ask our our guests is what advice would you [00:32:00] give to current or aspiring CMOs that that, that you might share with them?

Stacy: you might share with them?

You know, No, your numbers know that financial statement that PNL know your competitors, know the numbers. You should be the source when it comes to anything about patients, anything about finance, you are not marketing. You’re a business leader and you need to equally understand the performance of. That company.

And that means a deep understanding for the business, know the business and know the numbers. And I think the only other thing that I would say is, and I’ve learned this actually we do Heartland has introduced me to the bell Institute which is an amazing Institute, a leadership Institute that helps me and other executives do well.

And there was a stat that validated what I had always thought, which is people don’t understand. And I think, and I’m probably going to get it wrong [00:33:00] and I apologize to the bell Institute, but I think they said 85% of what you say will be lost in 24 hours. And if you think about that marketing people, the smarter they get, they start using words like contribution or response modeling or segmentation or lifetime value.

People do not understand what you’re saying. So really know your audience and make sure that you’re deeply connecting and using language right on top of that, understanding the finance and understanding the business, relate to your audience. So you can convey a very complex message and that they understand it.

And I would tell you, that’s what I think what I’ve learned doing it for quite some time. If you can master that, you’re going to be so much better than I am, because those are tough things.

Peter: Well, Stacy, that’s amazing advice. And I really appreciate your time today on the podcast. And I look forward to learning more about what you’re doing at at Heartland. [00:34:00] And for those of you who are listening, if you have thoughts or ideas about what else we should be covering on the podcast feel free to reach out to us@thenextcmoatplanet.com.

Follow us on all those social media things. If you can make sure that you rate and review our podcast,

Stacy: our

Peter: really helps us get the message out a little bit more. And thanks again, Stacy for a fantastic conversation and have a great day.

Stacy: have a great Thanks. Peter. Great meeting you.

Peter: Thanks.

Stacy: Thanks.